No, I'm not using the same tire on both ends. The question I answered was about the rear tire size
and the 110/90-18 actually equates to 4.33", while the 100/90-18 is just under 4" and the stock tire size was 3.50-18.
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AD
1967 CB450 K0 Resuscitation
- Thread starter KHSE
- Start date
KHSE
Veteran Member
Sorry, I assumed you had a 100/90x18 on the front. What are you using on the front?
I just looked at the owner's manual and they state the front as 3.25x18 and back as 3.5x18 which in metric would be 82.5x18 front and 88.9 rear. The smallest Shinko 712 for the front is 100/90x18. With the oem sizes, the rear is 1.07 x larger than the front which would be 107/90x18 which Shinko doesn't have so a 110/90x18 on the rear seems right. Does that all make sense? I assume the larger tire on the rear is due to weight distribution...
At the time I bought my Shinkos, I couldn't find a 90/90-19 (remember, mine is a CL450) so I bought a 90/90-19 in a Shinko 250 which is very similar to the 712.
Troy
Veteran Member
https://www.heidenautires.com/produ...hNMhDuj0KZazbcS8SRLV6pIG77st58cHkU71CUSwiE3oN
I put these Heidenaus on my Bomber. Limited miles but happy so far. Because I don't live anywhere near a shop and because this vintage bike thing seems to be habit forming I bought everything I need to do my own tires and have a friend that I share a balancing stand with.
KHSE
Veteran Member
Never heard of them before. Thanks!! They certainly look more vintage than the Shinkos. I'm not a cafe racer type guy so maybe the Heidenaus would suit me. They also come in the original factory sizes... Hmmm. What to do?
KHSE
Veteran Member
More success and disappointments.
I was just reading @RobMan stating some bits he just bought brand new aren't correct/don't work. Well, I have issues too.
I bought an "early Honda mirror" set from 4into1 - $25 - and for the life of me I can't get them to adjust. It's like it's all welded together. I've grabbed the threaded bit that comes out of the mirror with pliers and can't budge the mirror. Also tried penetrating oil. I'm thinking of trying the propane torch... It certainly looks like it should be adjustable but nope. Both mirrors are like that. Thoughts??
Another product, the rubber supports for the seat. My old ones are trashed, only one of my hinged ones has a hinge left on it. I got the new ones from David Silver Spares in England when I ordered the repro mufflers from them. (The repro mufflers are great).
The bottom left one only fits onto the frame in the front left position because the rear shock support is in the way in the left rear position. But in the front left position, once it is on the frame, that big tongue is in the way of the air cleaner cover so you can't open the seat at all. Furthermore, once mounted on the frame, neither rotate over far enough to engage properly with the bike's main tubes thereby not allowing the seat to close. These were expensive, about $150. Clauss Studios also have a set of them for $170. They look the same as the ones I got from David Silver. Anybody managed to make any of these work???
-----
Next, I was rereading @Troy's thread on his bomber and the section on reworking the headstock had me wondering about mine. Someone mentioned that they could get 'notchy'. I thought mine must be good but I put the bike up on the center stand and sitting back as far as possible to get the front wheel off the ground I swung the handlebars back and forth and there is a clear notch in the straight ahead position. I suspect this notch shouldn't be there. I have been wondering if that is why I feel slightly uncomfortable maneuvering the bike around at slow speed and even at higher speeds. The bike just doesn't feel as fluid as I think it should. I had thought that my handling issue was just my old age and lack of recent experience. How would that notch affect handling?
Yup!! That did it!! Thanks!! Doesn't make a peep now...
I was just reading @RobMan stating some bits he just bought brand new aren't correct/don't work. Well, I have issues too.
I bought an "early Honda mirror" set from 4into1 - $25 - and for the life of me I can't get them to adjust. It's like it's all welded together. I've grabbed the threaded bit that comes out of the mirror with pliers and can't budge the mirror. Also tried penetrating oil. I'm thinking of trying the propane torch... It certainly looks like it should be adjustable but nope. Both mirrors are like that. Thoughts??
Another product, the rubber supports for the seat. My old ones are trashed, only one of my hinged ones has a hinge left on it. I got the new ones from David Silver Spares in England when I ordered the repro mufflers from them. (The repro mufflers are great).
The bottom left one only fits onto the frame in the front left position because the rear shock support is in the way in the left rear position. But in the front left position, once it is on the frame, that big tongue is in the way of the air cleaner cover so you can't open the seat at all. Furthermore, once mounted on the frame, neither rotate over far enough to engage properly with the bike's main tubes thereby not allowing the seat to close. These were expensive, about $150. Clauss Studios also have a set of them for $170. They look the same as the ones I got from David Silver. Anybody managed to make any of these work???
-----
Next, I was rereading @Troy's thread on his bomber and the section on reworking the headstock had me wondering about mine. Someone mentioned that they could get 'notchy'. I thought mine must be good but I put the bike up on the center stand and sitting back as far as possible to get the front wheel off the ground I swung the handlebars back and forth and there is a clear notch in the straight ahead position. I suspect this notch shouldn't be there. I have been wondering if that is why I feel slightly uncomfortable maneuvering the bike around at slow speed and even at higher speeds. The bike just doesn't feel as fluid as I think it should. I had thought that my handling issue was just my old age and lack of recent experience. How would that notch affect handling?
It's a shame these sellers don't check or realize how bad the fit is in some cases. For the price, in most cases, it ought to fit like factory even if the materials vary a bit.
The notchy thing is flat spots on the balls and/or races in the steering head. Either replace them or upgrade to tapered rollers to get rid of it, nothing else will help.
The notchy thing is flat spots on the balls and/or races in the steering head. Either replace them or upgrade to tapered rollers to get rid of it, nothing else will help.
12ozPBR
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For the seat hinges, the larger one (with the tongue) goes on the rear mount. The tongue acts as a stop for the seat against frame when the seat is fully opened.
To install, first bolt the smaller hinge onto the seat in the front left set of holes. Then slide the large, tongued hinge onto the rear frame hinge pin. You will have to temporarily pull the left shock from the upper mount to get this rear hinge on the frame.
Next take the seat with front hinge already installed and align the hinge with front hinge pin and slide it on. Finally, holding the seat open, you should be able to swing the rear hinge into position with the rear left seat holes to install the two bolts. Hope this makes sense and solves your issue.
To install, first bolt the smaller hinge onto the seat in the front left set of holes. Then slide the large, tongued hinge onto the rear frame hinge pin. You will have to temporarily pull the left shock from the upper mount to get this rear hinge on the frame.
Next take the seat with front hinge already installed and align the hinge with front hinge pin and slide it on. Finally, holding the seat open, you should be able to swing the rear hinge into position with the rear left seat holes to install the two bolts. Hope this makes sense and solves your issue.
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ballbearian
Veteran Member
Bad, like you said. Better slightly loose than too tight, at this point. It is likely the races are brinneled (pitted) from a long time of poor initial adjustment. I'd loosen the adjustable upper threaded race, under the locknut and upper triple plate, by a quarter to a half turn, or so. Steering bearings are not steering dampers, so no resistance should be felt. I lift the front and usually remove the front wheel to get a better feel.
Make plans to replace the steering bearings and damaged races with stock or upgrade to a roller set up as AD said. Either way, proper adjustment (bearing preload) needs to be done.
EDIT: You do have a friction style steering damper, so that must be totally loosened to adjust the actual bearing preload/play first. You may need to remove the damper knob and rod to loosen locknut and then lift the triple plate to get to the adjustable upper bearing race.
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The "notch" in the bearing movement is always when the steering is aimed straight ahead, it's because the impact of bumps in roads happens most with the front wheel pointed straight while riding. The loose balls in the factory steering bearings get flat spots on them (or the races get dimpled in those spots) and it creates stiffness in the steering in that exact position so at low speed when you have to make slight corrections to keep the bike aimed straight, the steering wants to slip to the left or right of the stiff spot making it hard to maneuver.
KHSE
Veteran Member
I got all excited about this. I never thought to try removing the shock to get the larger bracket onto the back mount. But,
The smaller bracket doesn't really fit on the front mount. You can see that it doesn't reach over far enough to properly engage the main bike frame tube. The larger bracket with the big tongue has the same issue in that front mount position. I can entertain cutting the 'pointy' bit off the rubber but I would have thought that these things should fit 'right out of the box'.
12ozPBR
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I have a set of those reproductions like you have from DSS yet I have never mounted them on a seat for use. (They are saved for use on my WAY overdue Bomber project). I’ll try and dig them out and see how they work on my frame like you showed in the photo and I’ll report back. I am wondering if your front seat hinge pin that is on the frame may have gotten tweaked sometime over the years? The hinged piece in your photo seems way too far off to be normal.
KHSE
Veteran Member
Nothing funny looking with the hinge on the frame. It looks totally original, unmodified. My ratty old rubber thingies fit just fine.
12ozPBR
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Well here the result of the one I have on the front hinge pin of my “good” frame. Surprisingly still quite a bit off. Nothing seems bent or tweaked on my frame.
Here is the same repop hinge on the front mount of another spare frame I have. Basically the same result. I can’t explain why it is, or why I have never heard of anyone else questioning the fit of these. I have to imagine these were reproduced from a good known original? Maybe this ill fitment is one reason it is nearly impossible to find an original hinge that is unbroken?
For fun I included a pic of the rear hinge mounted on the rear pin of my spare frame. You will have to completely remove the left shock to install it. As you indicated with yours the fit is a little better for this one. Hope this helps some and leads you to a path of getting yours to work.
Here is the same repop hinge on the front mount of another spare frame I have. Basically the same result. I can’t explain why it is, or why I have never heard of anyone else questioning the fit of these. I have to imagine these were reproduced from a good known original? Maybe this ill fitment is one reason it is nearly impossible to find an original hinge that is unbroken?
For fun I included a pic of the rear hinge mounted on the rear pin of my spare frame. You will have to completely remove the left shock to install it. As you indicated with yours the fit is a little better for this one. Hope this helps some and leads you to a path of getting yours to work.
Troy
Veteran Member
Well, I don't have time to do much research right now but I will dive deeper into this later. Your seat questions bring back another round of deja vu for me. This drove me nuts when I was at that stage and somewhere I may have posted about it.
Nothing fit properly for me. I vaguely recall Jensen offering some suggestions but I could be wrong about that.
My hinge mounts fit exactly like 12oz's. Here is a pic of what I eventually ended up with. I'm supposed to be making dinner so for now this will have to suffice. Says CMSNL but pretty sure I bought them from Clauss. More later...
Nothing fit properly for me. I vaguely recall Jensen offering some suggestions but I could be wrong about that.
My hinge mounts fit exactly like 12oz's. Here is a pic of what I eventually ended up with. I'm supposed to be making dinner so for now this will have to suffice. Says CMSNL but pretty sure I bought them from Clauss. More later...
KHSE
Veteran Member
Well, @12ozPBR and I have very similar seat hinges (the rubber things). I got mine from DSS and @12ozPBR got his from Clauss. Maybe DSS got them from Clauss? @Troy got his from CMSNL and they are a different shape out of the box or they have been cut down because they are missing the arch that should fit over the bike frame tube the way my old ones do. That leads me back to thinking I need to cut off the arching lip on my DSS ones but that would then mean they won't cradle the bike frame and there would likely be more lateral stress on the seat hinge and more opportunity for the seat hinge tube to rip out of the rubber block.
edit - I just looked at the ones on the CMSNL website and the picture shows seat hinges with the arches, just like mine and @12ozPBR 's so it looks like @Troy's are modified.
edit - I just looked at the ones on the CMSNL website and the picture shows seat hinges with the arches, just like mine and @12ozPBR 's so it looks like @Troy's are modified.
Troy
Veteran Member
To clarify, I modified mine. I promise to provide more details when I can find a bit of time.
EDIT.
I just found this thread of mine from way back. I was wrong, I bought the hinge from DSS as well. In the end I modified my hinge as you can see in my photo above. Even at that it is still not a perfect fit and something I plan to revisit when I have nothing else to worry about. Since my bike had no seat or hardware when found I have no point of reference and was never able to determine if the aftermarket seat was off, the hinges, or both. In the end it doesn't matter. I need to get creative to make something fit. It was suggested that perhaps somebody had modified the hinge pin but I really doubt that is the case. To date it still requires an awful lot of downward force on the right side of the seat to engage the threaded knob and I don't have the the right hand support pieces fit yet. When I have the seat closed (which is much less frequent than I would like) It is supported by the hinges on the left and only the knob on the right. Again, more pressing challenges still but this is on the list for a day when the bike is running well and there is nothing more to do.
https://vintagehondatwins.com/forums/threads/450-k0-black-bomber-seat-troubles.7216/
EDIT.
I just found this thread of mine from way back. I was wrong, I bought the hinge from DSS as well. In the end I modified my hinge as you can see in my photo above. Even at that it is still not a perfect fit and something I plan to revisit when I have nothing else to worry about. Since my bike had no seat or hardware when found I have no point of reference and was never able to determine if the aftermarket seat was off, the hinges, or both. In the end it doesn't matter. I need to get creative to make something fit. It was suggested that perhaps somebody had modified the hinge pin but I really doubt that is the case. To date it still requires an awful lot of downward force on the right side of the seat to engage the threaded knob and I don't have the the right hand support pieces fit yet. When I have the seat closed (which is much less frequent than I would like) It is supported by the hinges on the left and only the knob on the right. Again, more pressing challenges still but this is on the list for a day when the bike is running well and there is nothing more to do.
https://vintagehondatwins.com/forums/threads/450-k0-black-bomber-seat-troubles.7216/
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KHSE
Veteran Member
@Troy Thanks for the link, I had not seen that thread. It looks like everybody's bike frames are original, and the same, and everybody has the seat hinges that are all the same and don't fit properly. @jensen got his new hinges to work but with much difficulty getting the seat latch to work. When I tried the new seat hinges there was no way I could get the seat to latch. When @jensen measured a set of original seat hinges they were different but closer to the new ones than expected.
@Troy, did you ever contact DSS?
So, what to do? I have thought of heating the hinges with a heat gun and forcing them on but I'm afraid of burning the rubber. Boil them in water? Or, cut them down like @Troy?
@Troy, did you ever contact DSS?
So, what to do? I have thought of heating the hinges with a heat gun and forcing them on but I'm afraid of burning the rubber. Boil them in water? Or, cut them down like @Troy?
Troy
Veteran Member
I never reached out to DSS, assuming that would lead nowhere. In the end I concluded that what I had was as close as I would likely ever find and I had best work with it. The problem, as I saw it, was too much material in the wrong places and so the solution to me seemed simple. Reshape what I had. I'm not finished with that but as I've said, the seat closes and there are other priorities right now.
I did find it curious that the parts I bought from DSS had CMSNL molded into them. I would guess that all of the available parts, regardless of the vendor, originate with Clauss Studios.
12ozPBR
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Interesting input on seat hinges from everyone’s experience. A point of clarity in the conversation however, the repop seat hinges I have did indeed come from DSS. I agree with KHSE that most likely all the repops originate from Clauss Studios despite where we may have purchased them from. If these are a Clauss product it wouldn’t be the first time I have experienced them reproduce a part with a less than perfect fit and then show no interest in further refining their product.
Troy
Veteran Member
I appreciate what they do and often they are the best or only option but, like 12oz says, not always the best service. 12oz and I have had private conversations about the lack of interest they have shown us both in producing a workable air filter crossover connection despite there being a ready market for such a product, regardless of cost.
Yeah, and that part is the most discouraging. You'd like to think there would be a little more appreciation for private individuals helping them recreate a fairly sought-after part for a popular vintage bike so they could make money.
12ozPBR
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Not to derail the seat hinge discussion on KHSE’s build thread, but I have found another source for a repop air crossover tube Troy. Send me a PM if you want the details so we can keep this thread on track.
KHSE
Veteran Member
Don't worry about this thread wandering around a bit. It's all Black Bomber so I'm good.
Out of curiosity I wondered if anything ever happened on that other website that is not to be mentioned. I admit I joined it yesterday. I did a google search for 'Black Bomber seat hinge site:thatothersite.net' and there was a thread there regarding someone making repop hinges. A source called DJIA? It was from 10-15 years ago and @jensen chimed up about trying to get a couple of sets when they were discussing getting more made. There was a picture of the set and they looked different from the Clauss set. Maybe if @jensen circles around again he'll know what that was all about.
Out of curiosity I wondered if anything ever happened on that other website that is not to be mentioned. I admit I joined it yesterday. I did a google search for 'Black Bomber seat hinge site:thatothersite.net' and there was a thread there regarding someone making repop hinges. A source called DJIA? It was from 10-15 years ago and @jensen chimed up about trying to get a couple of sets when they were discussing getting more made. There was a picture of the set and they looked different from the Clauss set. Maybe if @jensen circles around again he'll know what that was all about.
KHSE
Veteran Member
Well, I decided to bite the bullet and carve up the new seat hinges and make them fit. I'm a woodworker, woodturner, and carver so I have lots of sharp implements and I found that the rubber was quite easy to carve away. But, it still took me almost 3 hours. Put them on the bike, take them off, carve them, put them back on the bike, on, and off, and on... To carve them, I would screw them to a block of wood and clamp them in a vise. I mostly carved them using curved gouges.
The block of wood also allowed me to assess when I had carved enough away. I kept going until the block of wood was level.
The right side seat stays also required a lot of carving. I didn't need to carve any lips off but I had to deepen and widen the channel in order to get the seat low enough so I could engage the seat latch. I still have to sit and push heavily on the right side of the seat to get it to latch but better too tight than too loose IMO.
What's next? Probably should do the tires. Rereading @Troy's thread I saw the tires he put on his bike and I quite liked the look of them. The size and vintage look is a draw for me.
edit: My DSS hinges were also marked CMSNL...
The block of wood also allowed me to assess when I had carved enough away. I kept going until the block of wood was level.
The right side seat stays also required a lot of carving. I didn't need to carve any lips off but I had to deepen and widen the channel in order to get the seat low enough so I could engage the seat latch. I still have to sit and push heavily on the right side of the seat to get it to latch but better too tight than too loose IMO.
What's next? Probably should do the tires. Rereading @Troy's thread I saw the tires he put on his bike and I quite liked the look of them. The size and vintage look is a draw for me.
edit: My DSS hinges were also marked CMSNL...
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KHSE
Veteran Member
Ok, I'm back probably for another rant about replacement parts. @RobMan and I seem to be having our issues with suppliers. My front right foot peg rubber kept falling off. Since I haven't been riding far I have always found it again but figured it was time for new ones. Went to DSS and they advertised genuine parts so ordered two as I didn't want to trust aftermarket... They came in a plastic bag labelled 50661-283-010P, ahh... original parts for a Black Bomber... Nope!! Checking pics on their website they are the same rubbers that are listed as 50661-110-000P. My worn out ones have a square bike-side hole in them. The new ones don't. I thought maybe I'd hammer them on to see what happens but I figured I'd get them half on then get them stuck to the point I'd have to cut them off.
Here's the ends, old left, new right.
And the undersides:
Have you Black Bomber guys found any that fit???
Clauss Studios versions are even more wrong.
Here's the ends, old left, new right.
And the undersides:
Have you Black Bomber guys found any that fit???
Clauss Studios versions are even more wrong.
Any part number ending in P from DSS is a reproduction or pattern part
KHSE
Veteran Member
Not too much going on here. It's finally spring so I have been doing some yard work between the bouts of rain and high winds.
I previously mentioned that the 4into1 mirrors I got weren't any good. They will not adjust no matter how much penetrating oil or heat I applied. I got another set from DSS and they are just fine.
I continue to struggle with what to do about the front footpeg rubbers. The original ones have square holes on the bike end - see previous post - whereas it seems all the new ones have round holes with a slot and are shaped differently overall. Not being able to find any appropriate ones, I thought I'd try modifying the new wrong ones. I wanted to slip one on and then see where I needed to cut away rubber to make them fit. I shot a bit of oil into the rubber so I could slide it on and off but as soon as I slid the rubber on it split right down the middle. I guess the Bomber foot pegs are also larger in diameter than the later models...
Starting to think I should just glue the old ones back on but can't decide what glue to use. I'd go with silicone but that's such a PITA to get off if I decide to remove it...
You'd think that dealing with mechanical issues, carbs, etc would be the hardest part of rejuvenating one of these things but it's the simple things that can drive you batty.
I previously mentioned that the 4into1 mirrors I got weren't any good. They will not adjust no matter how much penetrating oil or heat I applied. I got another set from DSS and they are just fine.
I continue to struggle with what to do about the front footpeg rubbers. The original ones have square holes on the bike end - see previous post - whereas it seems all the new ones have round holes with a slot and are shaped differently overall. Not being able to find any appropriate ones, I thought I'd try modifying the new wrong ones. I wanted to slip one on and then see where I needed to cut away rubber to make them fit. I shot a bit of oil into the rubber so I could slide it on and off but as soon as I slid the rubber on it split right down the middle. I guess the Bomber foot pegs are also larger in diameter than the later models...
Starting to think I should just glue the old ones back on but can't decide what glue to use. I'd go with silicone but that's such a PITA to get off if I decide to remove it...
You'd think that dealing with mechanical issues, carbs, etc would be the hardest part of rejuvenating one of these things but it's the simple things that can drive you batty.
KHSE
Veteran Member
@12ozPBR :
More pics for the foot pegs:
Here you can see that the foot pegs are round rods with a triangular bit welded on near the pivot point presumably to stop the rubber from rotating on the rod. The weird bit is that the original rubbers have a square hole that seems to run all the way to the outside end of the rubber. The triangular bit fits into a corner of the square opening on the rubber thereby inhibiting rotation of the rubber on the rod.
Another view of the rod showing the triangular piece welded at the pivot point.
If I had managed to get the 'new' rubber on and engaged the 'slot' (see post #226 above) with the triangular bit, this is how the rubber would have been positioned on the rod:
That would have meant that your foot would be riding on the side of the rubber as opposed to on the top of the rubber. It's almost 90 degrees out of rotation. Also, remember that when I forced the new rubber onto the rod, the rubber split right down the middle presumably because the rod is too big in diameter to accommodate the rubber.
Since I have had the bike since early 1969, I assume that the foot pegs and their rubbers are original although I can't guarantee that.
More pics for the foot pegs:
Here you can see that the foot pegs are round rods with a triangular bit welded on near the pivot point presumably to stop the rubber from rotating on the rod. The weird bit is that the original rubbers have a square hole that seems to run all the way to the outside end of the rubber. The triangular bit fits into a corner of the square opening on the rubber thereby inhibiting rotation of the rubber on the rod.
Another view of the rod showing the triangular piece welded at the pivot point.
If I had managed to get the 'new' rubber on and engaged the 'slot' (see post #226 above) with the triangular bit, this is how the rubber would have been positioned on the rod:
That would have meant that your foot would be riding on the side of the rubber as opposed to on the top of the rubber. It's almost 90 degrees out of rotation. Also, remember that when I forced the new rubber onto the rod, the rubber split right down the middle presumably because the rod is too big in diameter to accommodate the rubber.
Since I have had the bike since early 1969, I assume that the foot pegs and their rubbers are original although I can't guarantee that.
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Troy
Veteran Member
I'm stumped. I've looked very closely at mine (without actually pulling the rubber from the peg, or the peg from the bike) and I can't figure out the problem with yours. On my bike the triangular wedge near the hinge points straight down and therefore lines up perfectly with the cut out on the rubber. My rubber sits perfectly horizontally. I wish I could be of more help.
Based on what you just said about yours, I wonder if his footpeg bars themselves are swapped left and right (not the entire peg assembly as I don't think they will as a complete unit), or if that would change the position of the triangular locating wedge. I looked at both sides' parts but it's hard to be sure from their pictures.
12ozPBR
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I think you are correct Tom. Whether the swinging portion of the footrest is swapped and installed on the wrong assembly or whether two of the same side ended up on this bike, there is a left/right to these. I’ve got three pairs of these to compare and some of these are correct, others are not. Who knows what was going on in this particular Honda assembly department? Either way, this is the correct orientation:
Additionally, these are the correct footrest rubbers:
For what it is worth, I have always found Windex to be a great substance for installing or removing rubber parts like pegs, grips, etc. Give it a try sometime.
Troy
Veteran Member
Perhaps but I'm not sure. KHSE, there is a cotter pin that holds the pivot pin in place and you could try swapping the pegs from right to left I suppose. (Not the brackets, just the pegs) I don't think this will solve your problem but at this point nothing to lose but a few minutes of time and some new cotter pins.
Barring that, if you want to bring your bike to Canada, we can have a beer and look at them side by side.
KHSE
Veteran Member
Well, that's a thought. I'll take a look tomorrow.
My concern with taking the peg off is the spring. Me and springs don't get along. They draw blood and shoot off into the darkness.
Now that's an excellent idea. I haven't had any good Canadian beers in quite a while. Haven't even seen a bottle of Bras D'Or or Brador in years...
12ozPBR
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One of the three sets I had was oriented incorrectly. For fun experimentation I just swapped the footrests between the brackets and it indeed corrected things. No worries KHSE, no exploding springs to deal with like when working on handlebar switch housings. The spring will stay with the footrest it is on. Your biggest issue if there is one will be getting the tiny cotter pin out without breaking it if it happens to be stuck.
KHSE
Veteran Member
Today I pulled off the left rubber and sure enough it was 'wrong' too. So, I'll swap them, left for right. Sprayed some penetrating oil on the cotter pins. Penetrating oil always seems to be something of a wishful thinking thing but I usually play the game for a while before more drastic measures.
It still seems very weird to me. Why are they swapped and why do my 'original' rubbers have square holes? Like I say, I bought the bike in early 1969 so I have to figure it was fairly original but there was one thing. The PO had modified the rear brake so it could be operated by the left foot due to some disability. I don't recall how it was modified and I had the dealer 'fix' it before I bought it. Did they mess it up? Did the factory have a 'bad' day? As @jensen said at one point he often wonders about these things too but finds it a waste of time because the questions are unanswerable...
This is possibly a clue to what happened, but swapping the entire left peg assembly for the right isn't possible because they're of reverse design. It would be really odd if for some reason they took the pegs off the footpeg assemblies themselves since that wouldn't be involved with simply removing them at their mounts to do some custom work.
Not likely, as the Bomber was their flagship bike then and I'd be really surprised if it was assembled wrong from the factory, since even the effort to put the footpeg rubbers on would have revealed a mistake.
KHSE
Veteran Member
Ya, bizarre. Another hypothesis is that my bike is completely correct and that it is the 'new' rubbers that are wrong... Remember, when I jammed a new rubber on it split right down the middle meaning the peg was too big in diameter for it. However, if switching the pegs gets the new rubbers to fit well enough then I will be happy.
Troy
Veteran Member
This says it all.
Earlier today I went back to the very beginning of your thread and looked at the pics you posted and it appears that the footpeg rubbers were sitting a bit funny. It seems like they are both rotated rearward a bit and is most noticeable on the right hand side. While I don't doubt that you are having problems or that the new rubber split for some reason, I'm skeptical that things were original and correct back when you began this adventure. Trying to figure out the how and the why may not get you anywhere and if I were in your shoes I would just worry about how to get things back together with what you have at hand.
12ozPBR
Veteran Member
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I can’t say why the repop peg rubber split but what I can say is that it appears to match what was original to a K0 450. Like this original one.
Whatever peg rubber you pulled off that was square is not what Honda originally put on your model. The later 450 twin folding foot peg did have a square shape however. My guess would be that somewhere along the way later model footpeg rubbers were installed on your pegs.
We know you have the correct round style peg and when you swap sides the tab should then point down. I would then try again to install the aftermarket repop rubbers like you have, this time spraying some Windex inside the peg right before you slide them on. Once it dries you should be good to go.
Whatever peg rubber you pulled off that was square is not what Honda originally put on your model. The later 450 twin folding foot peg did have a square shape however. My guess would be that somewhere along the way later model footpeg rubbers were installed on your pegs.
We know you have the correct round style peg and when you swap sides the tab should then point down. I would then try again to install the aftermarket repop rubbers like you have, this time spraying some Windex inside the peg right before you slide them on. Once it dries you should be good to go.
KHSE
Veteran Member
@12ozPBR, @Troy, Y'all were right of course. Finally found some time to switch the pegs and now they are oriented properly. I got the left one on using the windex method (and a wooden mallet). The right one completed its split right down the middle and fell off in no time.
Looks nice and surprisingly feels better too. So now I'll have to order another pair to get the right one done.
I'll also have to retract my diss on penetrating oil. After a week of occasionally squirting it on the cotter pins they both came out very easily. And, the springs didn't bite.
My other niggle was with the mirrors. The DSS ones work, but not great. They are hard to adjust to a point where I can actually see behind me but they'll do. There sure is a lot of vibration though. The handle bars vibrate so much the mirrors are quite blurry. Is that normal or do I need new rubber bushings in the handlebar mounts?
I need to get back to tuning the engine. It starts pretty well from cold with about 6 kicks on the kick starter. Choke almost all the way on with no throttle. It idles well right off starting. But several issues:
1) After warming up, the rpm has increased at idle from less than 1000 to around 2000. Still very smooth though. Also, not too sure of the numbers because I don't trust the tach.
2) Even the slightest twist of the throttle from idle causes a 1000 to 2000 increase in rpm. This complicates slow speed maneuvering.
3) It stumbles under load accelerating.
I haven't set the ignition timing with a timing light yet - so I haven't seen direct evidence of the advance mechanism working properly.
Looks nice and surprisingly feels better too. So now I'll have to order another pair to get the right one done.
I'll also have to retract my diss on penetrating oil. After a week of occasionally squirting it on the cotter pins they both came out very easily. And, the springs didn't bite.
My other niggle was with the mirrors. The DSS ones work, but not great. They are hard to adjust to a point where I can actually see behind me but they'll do. There sure is a lot of vibration though. The handle bars vibrate so much the mirrors are quite blurry. Is that normal or do I need new rubber bushings in the handlebar mounts?
I need to get back to tuning the engine. It starts pretty well from cold with about 6 kicks on the kick starter. Choke almost all the way on with no throttle. It idles well right off starting. But several issues:
1) After warming up, the rpm has increased at idle from less than 1000 to around 2000. Still very smooth though. Also, not too sure of the numbers because I don't trust the tach.
2) Even the slightest twist of the throttle from idle causes a 1000 to 2000 increase in rpm. This complicates slow speed maneuvering.
3) It stumbles under load accelerating.
I haven't set the ignition timing with a timing light yet - so I haven't seen direct evidence of the advance mechanism working properly.
KHSE
Veteran Member
Rainy day here today so poked at the bike a bit. I dug out my 50+ year old timing light and Tune-up Analyzer. Remember those things? The analyzer is a tach, dwell meter, voltmeter, etc... I got the analyzer from Shop-Rite, a catalogue store in Ontario in the early 70s, for $30 - price still on the box. In today's money that is like $230 but you can still buy somewhat equivalent things for $30. According to ebay it doesn't have any antique value either. The rubber boots on the alligator clips on the timing just crumbled to dust in my hands. Nonetheless they both still work great. I had static timed the bike and it turned out that that was close but a bit retarded so a little tweak and spot on. The advance worked correctly too. The right side was spot on as well after setting the left side. Good thing too as resetting the right side is an annoyance. Due to rain, no road check but the engine seemed to perk up a bit after the tweak. So, I think any issues now are going to be all about the carbs...
But remember, 90% of carb problems are electrical....
KHSE
Veteran Member
My electrons are well behaved.But remember, 90% of carb problems are electrical....
jensen
Veteran Member
Maybe your "electrons" are positrons ?My electrons are well behaved.
KHSE
Veteran Member
Kind of funny you saying that. I'm a chemist and my brother is an electrical (electronics) engineer. We are both amateur radio operators. In chemistry I always work out chemical reactions by where the electrons go so I'm an electron guy. He always talks about positive holes. When we are together talking theory we always wind up in a mess because of our different frameworks...
KHSE
Veteran Member
I'm back. Been mostly gardening of late.
So back in post #244 I stated that I set the ignition timing with a timing light and got it spot on and the advancer was working as expected. But, the bike still stumbles a bit when accelerating. At idle it is smooth and responds well to blipping the throttle but when accelerating it hesitates a bit. It constantly accelerates, just not smoothly. I reset the carb slow jets and idle screws but not unexpectedly this had no effect since those adjustments are for low rpm. I removed the spark plugs and they are pretty sooty which would indicate running rich. Why is it running rich? Note the left plug, on the left, seems slightly sootier than the right which has a bit of a tan colouration on the ground tip.
I have two theories.
1) The air cleaners are pretty grody. I keep meaning to take them off and see if it runs better without them although I have seen on this website a number of people stating that the bike doesn't run well with the air cleaners off. Why is that??
2) When I put the Hooker Headers on 50 years ago the dealer had me put larger main jets in 'to compensate for decreased back pressure'. I now have the repro mufflers on and therefore now have greater back pressure. Are the larger jets causing this rich condition? I still have the original jets that I can swap back in but those 'original' jets are #130 whereas my FSM states they should be #125.
But if either of these is the case, why is the left plug sootier than the right one? I would have thought that whether air cleaners or jets they should be the same...
So back in post #244 I stated that I set the ignition timing with a timing light and got it spot on and the advancer was working as expected. But, the bike still stumbles a bit when accelerating. At idle it is smooth and responds well to blipping the throttle but when accelerating it hesitates a bit. It constantly accelerates, just not smoothly. I reset the carb slow jets and idle screws but not unexpectedly this had no effect since those adjustments are for low rpm. I removed the spark plugs and they are pretty sooty which would indicate running rich. Why is it running rich? Note the left plug, on the left, seems slightly sootier than the right which has a bit of a tan colouration on the ground tip.
I have two theories.
1) The air cleaners are pretty grody. I keep meaning to take them off and see if it runs better without them although I have seen on this website a number of people stating that the bike doesn't run well with the air cleaners off. Why is that??
2) When I put the Hooker Headers on 50 years ago the dealer had me put larger main jets in 'to compensate for decreased back pressure'. I now have the repro mufflers on and therefore now have greater back pressure. Are the larger jets causing this rich condition? I still have the original jets that I can swap back in but those 'original' jets are #130 whereas my FSM states they should be #125.
But if either of these is the case, why is the left plug sootier than the right one? I would have thought that whether air cleaners or jets they should be the same...
wentwest
Veteran Member
I'd definitely swap back the original jets. Generally it's better to get as close to factory standard as you can, and then tune it according to the original specs. The combination of more back pressure from the mufflers and the probably dirty air filters could easily create a rich mixture. The question about why the left plug is sootier than the right is something you can address once you have the jets installed and clean the filters.