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1967 CB450 K0 Resuscitation

Still poking along here.

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Getting the starter motor cable in took quite an effort. I think the bike was initially built around the cable. I hope I got it mostly right. I'm waiting on an ebay NOS starter sprocket set plate. I guess the old one got eaten when the starter clutch disassembled itself. Then I can start buttoning it back up.

Questions:
I was wondering how the starter sprocket got its oil. There's no oil hole in the crankshaft. Reading the FSM it says somewhere that it gets its oil from the end bearing cap. How? Does it just spray out of the crankshaft end bearing drenching the sprocket bearing?

Looking through the website I searched to see what gasket sealants people use. Honda bond...? There didn't seem to be any consensus. Any recommendations?

Seems like every day I send in another order to Partzilla for screws etc. I may not ever get this thing running but at least the hardware will look good!!

*** What is the torque required on the rotor bolt? Searching this website I found @LongDistanceRider quoting 70-90 ft lbs. I thought that a bit excessive so I double checked to make sure he didn't say newtons per centimeter or something but no it was ft lbs. Looking further and @LongDistanceRider was also quoted as saying it was something like 15-20 ft lbs for a CL350. Why so different? So, I'm stuck. My FSM doesn't give a number that I can find... Are there numbers for later model CB450s in their own FSMs? What is the torque???
 
KHSE said:
I think the bike was initially built around the cable.
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LOL... it's intended to be put in place as you're slipping the starter motor into place, it is difficult to get wiggled into that spot between the engine and starter motor if the starter is mounted.
KHSE said:
I was wondering how the starter sprocket got its oil. There's no oil hole in the crankshaft. Reading the FSM it says somewhere that it gets its oil from the end bearing cap. How? Does it just spray out of the crankshaft end bearing drenching the sprocket bearing?
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While I pay more attention to the top end oiling because the starter clutch area is rarely if ever starved, it will be fine. It likely gets splash from the high rpm parts spinning around in the area, same way it sprays oil at you while checking the timing with a strobe.
KHSE said:
Looking through the website I searched to see what gasket sealants people use. Honda bond...? There didn't seem to be any consensus. Any recommendations?
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Depends on where you plan to use any sealer. Crankcase covers like that typically don't need any as long as the surfaces are, as Jim says, clean enough that your mother could eat off them. Hondabond is used on the crankcase halves when you take the bottom end apart, and in some cases on top end parts but that cover gasket will be fine without. However, having said that, there is one spot that should get a smear of Hondabond only because of its age - the grommet around the alternator wires gets hard and doesn't seal well, so put a light coat on it all the way around before slipping it into the notch in the cover.
KHSE said:
*** What is the torque required on the rotor bolt? Searching this website I found @LongDistanceRider quoting 70-90 ft lbs.
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That figure is probably for the SOHC 400s and 450s since LDR mentioned it, he doesn't work on the older DOHC 450s. The 350 torque number is fine, the rotors are almost identical. I generally just give them a couple bumps with a cordless impact wrench and 6 point 14mm socket, but if you use a torque wrench and need to hold the crankshaft still (with the right crankcase cover off) you can put a penny between the primary gears. I'd assume the torque value is somewhere in the DOHC 450 FSM, do you have the actual FSM or an aftermarket one?
 
KHSE said:
*** What is the torque required on the rotor bolt? Searching this website I found @LongDistanceRider quoting 70-90 ft lbs. I thought that a bit excessive so I double checked to make sure he didn't say newtons per centimeter or something but no it was ft lbs. Looking further and @LongDistanceRider was also quoted as saying it was something like 15-20 ft lbs for a CL350. Why so different? So, I'm stuck. My FSM doesn't give a number that I can find... Are there numbers for later model CB450s in their own FSMs? What is the torque???
Click to expand...
Do Not use the 70-90 torque I mentioned, that is for the SOHC 400/450 engines only. 16mm bolt
 
KHSE said:
Getting the starter motor cable in took quite an effort. I think the bike was initially built around the cable. I hope I got it mostly right. I'm waiting on an ebay NOS starter sprocket set plate. I guess the old one got eaten when the starter clutch disassembled itself. Then I can start buttoning it back up.
Click to expand...

ancientdad said:
LOL... it's intended to be put in place as you're slipping the starter motor into place, it is difficult to get wiggled into that spot between the engine and starter motor if the starter is mounted.
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Uh-huh. I think I alluded to that in a previous post a week or two ago. Best done when the motor is being installed to the frame.
 
LongDistanceRider said:
Do Not use the 70-90 torque I mentioned, that is for the SOHC 400/450 engines only. 16mm bolt
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I thought 70-90 ft lbs was a bit excessive that's why I started asking. I was misled because your post on June 23, 2020 said: CM/CB 400/450 engines of 70-90 ft. lbs. I interpreted that to mean that it included the CB450. I don't know if you can edit you 2020 post to make it clear not to do it with a DOHC CB450?

ancientdad said:
LOL... it's intended to be put in place as you're slipping the starter motor into place, it is difficult to get wiggled into that spot between the engine and starter motor if the starter is mounted.
Click to expand...
Troy said:
Uh-huh. I think I alluded to that in a previous post a week or two ago. Best done when the motor is being installed to the frame.
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Ya, @Troy. I was laying on my back trying to stuff the cable between the starter and the engine and your comment came to mind... So, loosened the starter motor enough to wiggle it in. Getting the starter motor back in place was a struggle. Wound the cable around under the engine and frame parts and then had to remove the tool box to get up to the solenoid. Got the tool box back on and made sure the air filters fit.

ancientdad said:
the grommet around the alternator wires gets hard and doesn't seal well, so put a light coat on it all the way around before slipping it into the notch in the cover.
Click to expand...

Good tip. Thanks.
 
LongDistanceRider said:
I can edit it but which post/thread are you talking about.
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ancientdad said:
If the post is in the SOHC 400/450 section then it really doesn't need editing, except maybe some additional clarification that it's only for the model the forum section applies to.
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Ya, you guys are right. It was in the SOHC section. I didn't pay attention to that. I just saw what looked like to me a reference to a CB450. Here's the link:https://www.vintagehondatwins.com/forums/threads/torque-and-torque-wrenches.544/

BTW: I got to that post using a google search directed at the VHT site. I hopefully would have recognized my mistake if I had found it by directly scrolling the site. I was, however, effectively air-dropped into that post and didn't recognize the "section" within the site where it was posted. Kind of a contorted sentence but hopefully you get what I mean.
 
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KHSE said:
I was, however, effectively air-dropped into that post and didn't recognize the "section" within the site where it was posted.
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I exactly get it, and it's part of what I mean by "sometimes mobile use doesn't show you everything" and in this case, I'm guessing it's because you were using the phone in portrait and not landscape. I learned a while back during a mobile use moment myself that if you turn the phone to landscape it will show the extended address of what you're looking at, so you'd be able to see what section it's in. Portrait (vertical) truncates the post/thread address. I even modified a meme for it

PC vs Mobile.png
 
KHSE said:
I'm afraid I don't have that excuse. I don't use my phone. I use a Mac laptop. No excuse for me. :rolleyes:
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Well it must have a small screen then, the width in landscape should reveal the address line with sections visible. Interesting...
 
ancientdad said:
Well it must have a small screen then, the width in landscape should reveal the address line with sections visible.
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Naw, big screen, the point is I never looked at the address line. From now on I will but even if I had looked at the address line it likely wouldn't have dawned on me that it wasn't meant for a DOHC CB450 because I didn't know that SOHC 450s even existed... More stuff to learn.

BTW: I have the original FSM for the bike and I can't find anywhere in there where they give a torque value. There's a table at the back of the FSM with torque values but not for the rotor bolt. It seems to be a pretty limited list. I was wondering if the later models have a torque value listed in their FSMs.
 
On that other forum that will not be named I found an Excel document that @Jays100 compiled named "DOHC 450 Torque Table 120711" and I downloaded it. Here is the info in it for the rotor to crank: Rotor (to crankshaft) ft-lb 23.5 + or - 1.5 M8 Bolt, Flanged. It may also be in available in VHT but not sure. The document is from 2011 and Jay may have an updated copy. You can PM me if needed.
 
RobMan said:
Rotor (to crankshaft) ft-lb 23.5 + or - 1.5 M8 Bolt, Flanged.
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@RobMan Great!! Thanks very much. I'll check that other site to find the complete list. If I can't find it then I'll PM @Jays100.
LongDistanceRider said:
Edit done.
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@LongDistanceRider I think that's a good move. Certainly wouldn't want anyone to actually use that torque value on their DOHC 450 !!

Still waiting on more parts to filter in. Someone recently mentioned on here that shipping seemed slow lately. I agree. Items tend to get to within 30 miles of me and then just loiter. Or, they get close and then take another trip around the state.
 
Just do a google search for "DOHC 450 Torque Table 120711" including the quotes and it's the only thing that cones up. You have to click See More at the bottom of the post to get to the file download.
 
KHSE said:
Someone recently mentioned on here that shipping seemed slow lately. I agree. Items tend to get to within 30 miles of me and then just loiter. Or, they get close and then take another trip around the state.
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It's been happening at times for a while now, only the excuses (reasons) vary. Check out the trip my VHT t-shirt went on a few years ago. Jim shipped it, then it got stuck in the black hole that is the Jacksonville post office hub, then back to California, then back to Jacksonville and finally to me.

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I've gone back to the carbs again. I finally got the main jet emulsifier tubes out, they had been stuck but a propane torch got them free. Despite all the carb cleaner I had shot through them while they were stuck, the emulsifier holes were still in need of cleaning.

The inner slow jet has me perplexed, however. There's a large hole in the top and a large opening in the bottom but poking it with a 0.2mm violin string I can't run it through or see light through either one of them, the left carb or the right carb:

slow jet.jpg


I have to believe that there's supposed to be a passage that goes right through the jet. Is there? What diameter would it be? '40' is stamped on the head of the jet.
 
The jet sizes reflect the hole diameter in millimeters so a #40 jet will be .40mm, #35 = .35mm, etc.
Soak the jet in gasoline and keep working at it, eventually it'll clear.
 
LongDistanceRider said:
Soak the jet in gasoline and keep working at it, eventually it'll clear.
Click to expand...
@LongDistanceRider: Hey, that worked!! It didn't even take eventually, only about 5 hours...
Carbs are all back together. Probably the cleanest they have been in a long time...
Still waiting for parts so I can move on.
 
Bit like Christmas today. Three orders came in at once. Still missing one order and just made another. I need to buy shares in Partzilla... Speaking of Partzilla, when I order stuff their website says it is in stock but then you find out that some of it isn't in stock and you have to wait for it. Is that a frequent occurrence?

Got the NOS starter sprocket set plate in and it fit nicely as expected. Put the left crankcase cover back on.

ancientdad said:
but if you use a torque wrench and need to hold the crankshaft still (with the right crankcase cover off) you can put a penny between the primary gears
Click to expand...

Ha, there's an advantage in having the workshop tool set, I used the drive sprocket tool thing to hold the rotor still so I could torque it:

tempImageaL0cHU.jpg

Now I have an issue with the neutral switch. It seems to be out of sync with the gear drum indicator. When the bike is in neutral, the gear drum slot is pointing around 10 o'clock but when the neutral switch is indicating neutral, its tang is pointing near 12 o'clock. How can that be? In this pic, the bike is in neutral and the switch is indicating neutral. They are out of sync:

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ballbearian said:
I've taken a couple of those switches apart, they are pretty simple and that could be the problem.
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I was thinking that that was the next step. I figure the gear drum has to be right, therefore, it has to be the switch but darned if I know why the switch would go 'off'.
 
KHSE said:
I was thinking that that was the next step. I figure the gear drum has to be right, therefore, it has to be the switch but darned if I know why the switch would go 'off'.
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It's been a while but IIRC, the spindle probably slipped in the internal contact bakelight holder. JBweld may have been used to fix it.
 
ballbearian said:
It's been a while but IIRC, the spindle probably slipped in the internal contact bakelight holder. JBweld may have been used to fix it.
Click to expand...
So, I took the switch apart and there is no way this switch could have 'gone wrong'. So, I cleaned it up and put it back together. Is the gear drum wrong? If so, I wouldn't have 4 gears would I? So, twiddling the drive sprocket and changing gears I managed to successfully, I believe, go from 1st to 4th and then back to neutral at which point the gear drum was pointing in a different direction than where I previously had it as neutral!! I put the neutral switch back on and my neutral light now works. :) Cause of the issue? Probably ineptitude. I must have previously found a false neutral somewhere. The switch is nice and clean now though...

Now I need to get a battery cable to the starter solenoid and a heftier ground wire in so I can try the starter motor. If that works then compression test, adjust cam clearances, ignition timing, put the carbs back on and see if it runs.

I probably should replace the coils. The spark plug leads are original and very stiff and original coils too. Despite that, they do fire. But, maybe not optimal? I have read in this website issues of resistor caps and resistor plugs. @jensen points out NGK 1K ohm caps that seem to be available in Europe but not here. What do you USA guys do? What coils, what caps, and what plugs?
 
I'm using these from 4into1, but with B8ES plugs (non-resistor).

4into1.com

Ignition Coils and Caps - Honda CB450K CL450K CB500T

Reproduction 12V Honda ignition coils and NGK spark plug caps for the CB/CL450K and CB500T. Use this kit with your points ignition or electronic ignition. Fan out the spark plug wires before twisting on the caps.
4into1.com 4into1.com

Both primary wires on the points side of these coils are blue, so one blue wire at the coil will connect to the yellow wire from the other set of points.

Before the non-resistor plugs were sold out I bought as many as I could find, so I'm set for a while but when BR8ES is all you can find then you need non-resistor caps.
 
jensen said:
check if you need the 12 or 14 mm version
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@jensen Thanks very much for pointing them out!! I have always had 90 degree caps in the bike.

The caps you pointed out are stated to fit 10, 12, or 14mm plugs so they should work.

I need to go back and see what plugs you are using.
 
Well, I'm thoroughly disappointed today. I finally got the starter motor all wired up and tried it out. With the spark plugs out it turns the engine over but not with any real conviction. If I put the spark plugs in it will turn a bit and then stop. I went back through my grounding, cleaning off paint and shining up the metal surfaces but still pretty whimpy action. The battery is good and even with my battery charger assisting it is slow. I took a little movie, more for the sound than the visual, but can't figure out how to load it. It is 12MB...
 
KHSE said:
Well, I'm thoroughly disappointed today. I finally got the starter motor all wired up and tried it out. With the spark plugs out it turns the engine over but not with any real conviction. If I put the spark plugs in it will turn a bit and then stop. I went back through my grounding, cleaning off paint and shining up the metal surfaces but still pretty whimpy action. The battery is good and even with my battery charger assisting it is slow. I took a little movie, more for the sound than the visual, but can't figure out how to load it. It is 12MB...
Click to expand...
You don't load videos here, you link them here from where you have them hosted. If you have a Gmail account you already have 15 Gb of free storage and a YouTube account, just go to YT, log in with your Gmail credentials and upload the video there, then link it here. All you have to do to link it here is paste the address of the video in the text box and the forum will pull the video from YT.
 
If I had to guess, it sounds like maybe the planetary gears are off one tooth. It isn't turning nearly as fast as it should.
 
ancientdad said:
planetary gears are off one tooth
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I don't know how that could be. Are there examples of that happening? I'm inclined to think that not enough power is getting to the motor. Dirty solenoid? Maybe one of the cable lugs I soldered on wasn't done well enough? I'll try some bypassing and see what happens.
 
jensen said:
NGK supplies non resistor caps
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@jensen You said you use NGK BR8EIX plugs in your CB400F (although the picture you posted shows a DR8EIX plug). Do you use the same plugs in your CB450 or are you using up your stock of non-resistor plugs? Would you recommend the BR8EIX for a DOHC CB450? Thanks
 
I had a lot of trouble getting the planetary gears synched properly. I was bench testing the starter motor and it would pretty much jam, until I got it right.
A related thing was I had some amount of trouble with unreliability with the solenoid, but the K0 solenoid is held together with screws so I took it apart and thoroughly cleaned the contact points and the surface of the copper plate that bridges them. It made a huge difference!
 
@jensen You said you use NGK BR8EIX plugs in your CB400F (although the picture you posted shows a DR8EIX plug). Do you use the same plugs in your CB450 or are you using up your stock of non-resistor plugs? Would you recommend the BR8EIX for a DOHC CB450? Thanks
Click to expand...

Yes, I use the BR8EIX, but compare the length with the plugs you have now. Officially, the BR8EIX fit's the CB450's from 1970, be carefull.
 
KHSE said:
I don't know how that could be. Are there examples of that happening? I'm inclined to think that not enough power is getting to the motor. Dirty solenoid? Maybe one of the cable lugs I soldered on wasn't done well enough? I'll try some bypassing and see what happens.
Click to expand...
I've only had a couple of starter motors apart in my decades of doing this stuff, but it took me a few tries to get the planetary gears aligned correctly during assembly on one of them. The result was a slow starter motor that made an odd whining sound and seemed like something was dragging down the speed. It's easy to be off one tooth.
 
OK, I'll clean the solenoid, if that doesn't work the starter motor is coming back out (Oh joy) and check the gears, and I'll check the resistance of all my cables.

Thanks for the help !!!!!
 
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KHSE said:
Thanks @jensen. Currently I have Champion N3C plugs. Looking up data sheets they have a 19mm reach and the BR8EIX also have a 19mm reach so they should be good.
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I will tell you - and I'm not the only one who has encountered this, Jim (and I'm sure others) has as well - that the best results you'll have with plugs in these bikes will be with NGK or ND plugs. I've seen people use Champion, Autolite and other brands in them and they've never worked well. Stick to NGK plugs and you won't ever have to wonder if the problem is the plug or not.
 
jensen said:
never use the P-nose (projected nose) version, valves will hit the electrode bridge
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@jensen I read your article, well parts of it, my Dutch is non-existent but Google Translate does pretty well. Yes, based on your unfortunate experience - don't use P-nose plugs. I will use the BR8EIX plugs but not the BPR8IEX plugs! Interestingly, they list the 'reach as 19mm for both of them. You would think that the 'reach' is longer with the projected one.
Also found your description of working on the fork leg very interesting. I have the fork tool that you used in my tool kit but I have seen where the forks can be very difficult to separate and you destroy the tool and the fork collar while trying to remove it. My forks have never been apart so I would suspect they are fairly stuck. I'll probably just leave them alone...
 
KHSE said:
@jensen I read your article, well parts of it, my Dutch is non-existent but Google Translate does pretty well. Yes, based on your unfortunate experience - don't use P-nose plugs. I will use the BR8EIX plugs but not the BPR8IEX plugs! Interestingly, they list the 'reach as 19mm for both of them. You would think that the 'reach' is longer with the projected one.
Click to expand...
The P is for projected tip, even though they're all 19mm reach the negative electrode is longer and that's what hits the piston.
 
Also found your description of working on the fork leg very interesting. I have the fork tool that you used in my tool kit but I have seen where the forks can be very difficult to separate and you destroy the tool and the fork collar while trying to remove it.
Click to expand...

The thread is 17 pages long, and all about the CB450 K0. Indeed, it's in Dutch, and difficult (time-consuming) to transfer everything to this forum.

What I did use a lot of penetrating oil, lot's of patience and heat. I would strongly suggest taking the left fork leg apart, this is the one which is the most critical, since the lower part works as opposite force point for the brake arm. It's very important to clean out the left one as good as possible, if the left leg wears out, it won't hold oil anymore, and a new lower fork L/H is very price (for a good reason !).
 
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Progress. I took the solenoid apart. It wasn't very dirty but now the copper bits are nice and shiny. But, of course that didn't fix the problem. So, starter motor back out again. I rigged up a test bed with a battery. Tried it before taking the motor apart. Pretty whimpy. Took the planetary gear head off and tried it again. Not great. But every time I tried it, it got stronger and stronger and after several runs it was really screaming along. Maybe the brushes settled in since I had previously cleaned them...? Put the planetary head back on and it was fairly zippy. Put it back in the bike and:


And that's with the plugs in. Not too happy with the little screech when I release the starter button but at least it is working.
 
Not bad. Your idea that the brushes are bedding in makes sense to me. And the starter clutch is pretty dry right now, and exposed with no cover yet, so you will hear all sorts of things that will be different with lubrication and a cover.
 
Having used pin spanners many times over the years on bicycles and broken many, as well, I opted to make some wooden clamping blocks for my very rusted fork seal housings. It worked great, as it probably was about 100ft/lbs. of torque to break those very fine threads loose.
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