Introducing A Better Oil Pump, New For 450 & 500T

I am going to have to limit myself on this forum. Every time I start to read something I see something way cool that I go "ooooh that would be so cool on my build". Not sure if my pocketbook (or wife) can handle it all! o_O
In this case, you are protecting the investment to ward off future failures.

You are saving money.
 
I am going to have to limit myself on this forum. Every time I start to read something I see something way cool that I go "ooooh that would be so cool on my build". Not sure if my pocketbook (or wife) can handle it all! o_O
I told you when you got here that you were in the right place now for your vintage Honda twin, but that might lead to other changes in your life... wouldn't be the first time it's happened. :oops:
 
I am going to have to limit myself on this forum. Every time I start to read something I see something way cool that I go "ooooh that would be so cool on my build". Not sure if my pocketbook (or wife) can handle it all! o_O
Same cost as two burnt cam followers is the way I looked at it. It definitely speeds pressure to the top. I did an unprimed, completely dry first start and it was almost immediately getting oil to the top end.
 
I have gears due by months end (same for 450)

Remaining task is to finalize detail drawings…I’m still leery of fit so am working on functional 3D printed mounting bits. My budget is very close and cash flow is going in the wrong direction and can’t afford the risk of not fitting. That is, the supplier quality is outstanding but I don’t trust my clutch to pump interface dimension. I’m okay to risk $100 but not $1000…

First functional protos by mid July. Of course I have a biz trip in there so take my schedule with much salt.
 
The CB360 uses a trochoidal pump. I wonder if the CB350 engine might be amenable to an adaption of that. I have no CB350 engines available, so not my area to investigate, but the 360 does have a better pump than the 350.

Oil Pump Schematic.JPG
 
I did acquire a 360 trochoidal pump and no matter what I did, couldn’t package it to the 350. At issue are the mounting posts not being in a convenient position other than for a piston pump. Then, that pump requires a deep cavity (unavailable) so diameter is needed for the flow volume (also unavailable).

The design criteria is to double the OEM piston pump output. Had to get very creative!
 
I did acquire a 360 trochoidal pump and no matter what I did, couldn’t package it to the 350. At issue are the mounting posts not being in a convenient position other than for a piston pump. Then, that pump requires a deep cavity (unavailable) so diameter is needed for the flow volume (also unavailable).

The design criteria is to double the OEM piston pump output. Had to get very creative!
And having worked with the prototypes for fitment I can definitely say Jay was creative.
 
Curious why Honda never came out with any service update for the top end oiling issue on these. I suppose followers were pretty easy/cheap to replace at the time ?
 
Curious why Honda never came out with any service update for the top end oiling issue on these. I suppose followers were pretty easy/cheap to replace at the time ?
Honda did refer to the warm-up time needed to allow oil to get to the top end before riding away or revving the engine much above idle, but there was no service recall or update that I'm aware of other than the change to the 19mm piston pump on the later models.
 
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Pumps availability is pushed to mid July. Apparently my supplier (a smaller shop) had kids graduating college in another country. Congratulations are in order!
He’s noted shipment 1st wk July.
I’ll get as much prep work as I can up front to minimize delay.
 
Pumps availability is pushed to mid July. Apparently my supplier (a smaller shop) had kids graduating college in another country. Congratulations are in order!
He’s noted shipment 1st wk July.
I’ll get as much prep work as I can up front to minimize delay.
My bike has waited 55 years for this. A bit longer is no big thing.
 
This is to start a discussion on sealing quality.
Note this was not my original test engine, a 30K mi rider ('68 CL450) that was well maintained along the way.

At issue, my test motorcycle/engine had been rebuilt at 13K miles (I bought a basket - '70 CL450) that was seriously abused along the way and I put my oil pump on at roughly 13500 miles. Now, there is about 16000 on this bike (2500 on the pump) and I'm experiencing some seeping leak(s) through the left exhaust cam bearing/points gasket.
oil leak 1.jpg

left front of the engine
 
Examining the two suspect gaskets, the valve adjust cover and the left side cam bearing gasket, it looks like the cam bearing joint is leaking. Why? The joint itself is clean, this tells me that the area dirt accumulation is being "washed" clean. That gasket was new 3K-ish miles ago and should have stayed tight for a while yet, so I think. But, with the better oiling, I have very few data points on what it should be over time. The gold standard is leak tight.

I think....the recommendation is to assemble the top end gaskets with some sealing compound at replacement. While I like ThreeBond products, many will work and work well so long as they're temp and oil compatible. As to temp, I measured 160°C at the spark plug on a hot day with engine idling (at a stop light). FYI, that dropped to around 110°C when moving above 20mph. Most sealers will handle that nicely.

The reason I'm recommending an additional sealing means is if the engine has ever been apart, most have, the mating surface may be gouged or uneven - imperfect in some way. This is for both the head and mating piece faying surfaces.

Asking input on pump use v. oil leaks.
 
Yeah, I ride this into work daily and wondered where the spots were coming from (on my nice clean slacks). I work in a hydraulics shop so some spots appear just walking through the test floor but these weren't nice clean hyd oil, but black and ugly, icky stuff.
 
Interesting - I had a leak in the same spot after install, and the cylinder base gasket. I chalked those up to a bad set of gaskets as the cylinder base was a pretty sizeable leak, not seepage. Now that the CX is done, I can replace those gaskets and I'll go ahead and hit them with some carefully applied sealer. Probably just put it on the gasket off the bike and let it tack up to make sure it doesn't squeeze out into the passages,
 
Thanks for chiming in!
I don't think it's a bad gasket per se, but some wicking through the fiber of the gasket itself. That phenomenon is inherent to gaskets so the sealer needs to be on the edges as well. I think the squeezed out excess (or is that squozed out?) would fit that but how do you control quality?

For useless trivia, the aircraft industry has banned use of gaskets in favor of o-ring seals on every mating surface for the last 20-ish years.
 
I'm thinking that with the increased oil pressure the stock/standard gaskets are unsuitable. The material allows oil to wick thru the fibers and with pressure it'll push thru. Need a gasket material that's impregnated with Nitrile-Buna or maybe Viton. You might contact Felpro or another gasket material company seeking feedback of the best material.
I would also consider using Hylomar Blue over Honda Bond.
 
The crazy thing is we're not talking big oil pressure, on the order of 3-4 psig. Good mating surfaces should handle that low pressure easily....but I'm learning that may not be the case.

Another factor is we tighten the fasteners until they're "tight". Everyone's "tight" is different and we don't specify a torque standard on the screws. Further, I don't know how to remedy that in our DIY environment - nor do I want to if truth be told. Torque variations that is.

The other side of my engine is absolutely dry including the clutch cover. What's different from side-to-side?

I'm good with Hylomar Blue (but I've never used), Honda Bond, ThreeBond, YamaBond, Suzuki's version of that case sealer..... Not so good with the automotive Gaskacinch, Permatex, etc. those applications just dry hard and you need a chisel to remove - they're harder than the Aluminum so don't use! (don't ask me how I know, horror stories abound)
 
I would also recommend Hylomar Blue. I have used it for many years.
It never sets hard and you cannot dissolve it with normal automotive petrols , greases or oils.
The only substance I have found that will clean up a joint is Paint Thinners.
You also don't need very much, just a smear on both mating surfaces.
I have used it on bare castings and with thin gaskets.

Hylomar Blue was invented by Rolls Royce in the late 1930's to seal mating surfaces in the merlin engine going into Lancasters, Hurricanes and Spitfires.
No Gaskets allowed then !!
 
The other side of my engine is absolutely dry including the clutch cover. What's different from side-to-side?
I'm seeing a little oil on the right side of my head, in the area of the exhaust cam end cover. I haven't really investigated it carefully so far and thus would not attribute it to the pump at this stage of the game.

How many pumps are in service at this point? I would imagine it's still a relatively small sample size.
 
The crazy thing is we're not talking big oil pressure, on the order of 3-4 psig. Good mating surfaces should handle that low pressure easily....but I'm learning that may not be the case.

Another factor is we tighten the fasteners until they're "tight". Everyone's "tight" is different and we don't specify a torque standard on the screws. Further, I don't know how to remedy that in our DIY environment - nor do I want to if truth be told. Torque variations that is.

The other side of my engine is absolutely dry including the clutch cover. What's different from side-to-side?

I'm good with Hylomar Blue (but I've never used), Honda Bond, ThreeBond, YamaBond, Suzuki's version of that case sealer..... Not so good with the automotive Gaskacinch, Permatex, etc. those applications just dry hard and you need a chisel to remove - they're harder than the Aluminum so don't use! (don't ask me how I know, horror stories abound)
I’m torqued to 9 lb/ft on all the M6 screws, using brand new hardware and clean threads - tiny layer of anti-seize.

The cylinder base gasket I’m almost positive has something to do with the gasket, luckily it didn’t get too baked on so I might have a chance to get some pics of it after the holiday when I pull those.

Interesting about the Hylomar - how is it cleaning up down the road?
 
The torque spec sheet for the '86 CB450SC say 5-8 ft. lbs. for a 6mm screw, nuts/bolts are 6-9 ft. lbs.
There's a distinct possibility that the cover has warped slightly where the screws are, I've seen this with the VB carb caps when someone has overtightened them.
 
I’m torqued to 9 lb/ft on all the M6 screws, using brand new hardware and clean threads - tiny layer of anti-seize.

The cylinder base gasket I’m almost positive has something to do with the gasket, luckily it didn’t get too baked on so I might have a chance to get some pics of it after the holiday when I pull those.

Interesting about the Hylomar - how is it cleaning up down the road?
EzPete,
I use Paint Thinners to dissolve it away.
I think Acetone is a similar to paint thinners?
 
I haven't noticed any leaking recently. The engine did leak from several places in and around the head after I installed the pump, but they generally stopped after replacing those same gaskets and the o-rings around the valve adjuster shafts. To me it was confirmation that the new pump was doing its job well.
 
The torque spec sheet for the '86 CB450SC say 5-8 ft. lbs. for a 6mm screw, nuts/bolts are 6-9 ft. lbs.
There's a distinct possibility that the cover has warped slightly where the screws are, I've seen this with the VB carb caps when someone has overtightened them.
Lower torque on screws due to head design is normal, they are only mild steel. (only spec I could find is ancient, 25-27 ton/sq/in)
I have no idea how that converts to even 1960's/70's spec of the thousands of pounds (PSI steels)?
Even the 25T/sq/in had variations for rolled or cut threads. (I know, way too much information)
I have a feeling a torque spec for screws was very rare until torque screwdrivers became more accessible (although still expensive so vast majority never got them unless they had too for aircraft or nuclear/research facilities)
I was going to chime in with a torque value but as I haven't logged in for weeks thought I would read through first.
Anyone who has rebuilt air cooled VW engines will know that over-torquing crankcase or cylinder head bolts/studs leads to case distortion and leaks.(even though +10% always seemed fine to me)
Sometimes, too tight is almost as bad as too loose, at least things rarely fall apart if too tight.
 
Yikes, take a break for just a minute and the sky falls, lol!

yes, the pump is still available, in the hustle and bustle of life, it’s easier to manage through eBay. Shipping pretty much anywhere in the US is under $10 and I can offer a discount if through the group.

I started my daily rider the other day on a Monday after sitting all weekend and gosh, the engine noise was really loud then just stopped. I’ve never heard such a distinct change in timbre before (well, I’m kinda deaf anyway but I could really hear this one). Really need to keep these venerable twins running and riding!
Hi Jay,

I come from Germany and ride a K0 Black Bomber. I'm currently trying to install a K5 oil pump myself and came across your posts in this forum.

Wow

Really great work! Where can I buy your innovative pump? And does it fit into the K0?

Thank you and have a nice week!
 
Pumps availability is pushed to mid July. Apparently my supplier (a smaller shop) had kids graduating college in another country. Congratulations are in order!
He’s noted shipment 1st wk July.
I’ll get as much prep work as I can up front to minimize delay.
Missed it!? :(
 
Hi Y’all!
Currently snowed in at the Denver airport, rescheduled flight now delayed. Found great BBQ but otherwise, still stuck. Day 2, Ugh.

I have pumps and am (in theory) able to market. As Tom mentioned, I’ve just retired and am amid family obligations with travel, to Jan 3.

Can we reconnect in Jan when I’m reliably home?

Meanwhile, please do introduce yourself in a post, and comment on other posts and get your posting requirements met. There is a plethora (even wealth!) of inciteful information here!
 
Jays, I ask with trepidation…
how far along ( if started ) is the design for improved pump for CB350?
reply at your leisure please. Even if it is not until after January 2025
 
Re 350. I have a design that is modeled and steel gears procured. But, still sorting design details and the associated 2D manufacturing drawings. The design got complicated as the space available to meet 2x flow was.not.there. I’m conceptually satisfied and at the tolerance stack up stage. Projecting 1Q25 for functional test pumps. (The current urban myth I’m going with)

Two things of concern:
-strength of the drive gear key
-premature leaks through multiple sandwiched plates
Either one is enough to ruin yer whole day, mine too.
 
Hi Y’all!
Currently snowed in at the Denver airport, rescheduled flight now delayed. Found great BBQ but otherwise, still stuck. Day 2, Ugh.

I have pumps and am (in theory) able to market. As Tom mentioned, I’ve just retired and am amid family obligations with travel, to Jan 3.

Can we reconnect in Jan when I’m reliably home?

Meanwhile, please do introduce yourself in a post, and comment on other posts and get your posting requirements met. There is a plethora (even wealth!) of inciteful information here!
Jay please let me know when you’re ready to sell some pumps. I’m looking to upgrade mine as I’ve already had some followers burn up on my K7 and would like to prevent it in the future.
 
Jay please let me know when you’re ready to sell some pumps. I’m looking to upgrade mine as I’ve already had some followers burn up on my K7 and would like to prevent it in the future.
Meanwhile, have you checked the oil filter and oil pump screen? Are you letting the bike idle during at least 1 full minute of warm-up before you ride away? If you're not aware, the DOHC 450 engine is a special case among vintage Hondas and the top end relies only on the film of oil left behind from the last time run, as the head design allows no residual oil puddled below the cams and followers to help lubricate the parts until oil flow from the pump arrives on a cold start. Honda even indirectly mentioned it in the owner's manual

CB450 manual2.jpg
 
Meanwhile, have you checked the oil filter and oil pump screen? Are you letting the bike idle during at least 1 full minute of warm-up before you ride away? If you're not aware, the DOHC 450 engine is a special case among vintage Hondas and the top end relies only on the film of oil left behind from the last time run, as the head design allows no residual oil puddled below the cams and followers to help lubricate the parts until oil flow from the pump arrives on a cold start. Honda even indirectly mentioned it in the owner's manual

View attachment 39684
It wasn’t the oil screen, that particular problem was due to incorrect installation of the oil pump. The dowel was missing between the pump and the case if I remember correctly. Either way the damage wasn’t too bad, but afterwards definitely made me paranoid. After pulling the exhaust cam cover and seeing how long it takes for oil to get to the cam I started to contemplate the cappellini or Jays system.
 
It's 4:30 AM. I live in a place where no 450 DOHCs exist, let alone parts for them... I still read this entire thing. Fascinating and congrats Jay on your awesome work and engineering. Absolute work of art. LOVED the graphs as well.
My doctor told me to cut down on sodium intake, so I'll just have to trust you instead.
I will be using this one :ROFLMAO:
Anyone who has rebuilt air cooled VW engines will know that over-torquing crankcase or cylinder head bolts/studs leads to case distortion and leaks.(even though +10% always seemed fine to me)
I can confirm. Have heard the horror stories and also have seen engines with so much sealant/gasket glue that mechanics didn't even bother checking the rest of the engine before the customer approved some working hours.

On the sealer/glue/etc part, I'd like to add another option, although take this with a grain of salt as I only ever used it on small 2 stroke engines (although some of them were high compression ones, to be fair, and some of them ran on everything from synthetic 2 stroke, to a mix with castor oil to mineral).
If anyone knows better about this glue, please correct me.

Dirko HT from Elring - It's supposed to be some german stuff, should work until about 300c (572f), sillicone based.
Funnily enough, I heard about this glue from a friend of my father who works on stoves, he said he used that glue to put new glasses (or should I say glass panels? I don't know) into them.

Got an old tube from him one day, searched around, saw good things, some places indicated that it was created for sealing heads and engine cases, so I went ahead and used it on quite a few 2 stroke heads (that originally used aluminum gaskets before I modified them, installed them gently, very light layer on both the head and the cylinder)...
No issues at all, and when I removed them, initially the parts are stuck together, but when you split the parts apart (not much effort required), the glue is always still soft and is quite easy to remove after splitting the parts, can probably scrape it off with a plastic pick (I honestly usually just use an old rag).
Never had a single leak from those heads as well, and some of them had gone through hell, one or two with extreme carbon build-up.

Never used it in my CB450 SOHC as I'm a firm believer in my old mechanics teacher who once said (in a different language) "Don't put glue where a gasket goes, unless you have to put just a dot to hold the gasket in place" - But then again, I 100% understand these engines are old, and some of them battered and abused, so the surfaces might not be that great and could use a little help.
 
I have new pumps available, contact me for updated price. Dang inflation!
Hi Jay, I’ve read through this page two or three times now and it’s really a great saga! I’m gonna rebuild my ‘69 450 engine over the next couple months and was interested in getting one of your pumps. Thought I saw them listed on eBay a few months back but can’t find them now. Let me know how I can get a hold of one!
 
Hi Jay, I’ve read through this page two or three times now and it’s really a great saga! I’m gonna rebuild my ‘69 450 engine over the next couple months and was interested in getting one of your pumps. Thought I saw them listed on eBay a few months back but can’t find them now. Let me know how I can get a hold of one!
Best way is to contact Jay by PM here, @Jays100
 
I have new pumps available, contact me for updated price. Dang inflation!
Hi Jay,
I've been following your oil pump projekt from the beginning.It's fantastic! I'd like to use it to convert my "67 450K. Do you have one for sale? I live in Germany Email me at [email protected]
Best regards from Cologne , Burkhard Nuck
 
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