Introducing A Better Oil Pump, New For 450 & 500T

Well, how would you like us to refer to ourselves?
...being in the asylum, that is....

I see a survey in the not too distant future!
 
Well, since the "inmates" nickname is already taken by one of the biggest forums ever bought to be destroyed by VS and the replacement forum members seem to be using the same nickname to some extent, we should be creative and come up with something more appropriate for our nickname.
 
ancientdad said:
Well, since the "inmates" nickname is already taken by one of the biggest forums ever bought to be destroyed by VS and the replacement forum members seem to be using the same nickname to some extent, we should be creative and come up with something more appropriate for our nickname.
Click to expand...

Perhaps "addicts"
 
I have vices, but no addictions.

I repeat that every time I head to the garage, especially since my wife won't let me bring parts in and fiddle with them in the kitchen, or the dining room, or any other room in the house. All except my printer area, the clean room where I keep the pumps and parts.

The alcohol is kept in a separate room.

No siree, not an addict.
 
Somehow "antiquary" seems to make me feel like a worn out old geezer with little real value. Maybe it's true but don't highlight it.

Gyro Gearloose is my hero:

GYRO670.jpg
 
12ozPBR said:
With this said, it is worth pointing out that in your case Troy, there was an update issued back in the day for the stock pump on the K0 CB450. It involved removing some material from the underside of the pump where the sump screen is. If you are going to use the stock pump from the K0 you would want to verify that update was done. Also as Tom mentioned you can fit a K1-K7 pump to your bike relatively easy I believe.

Of course the best option might be to buy this new pump from Jay if he has one available for sale and it fits the budget parameters for your project.
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Budget!!! Oh my! That was over before it started. I've tried to to not think in terms of overall budget but rather how much I have to spend at any given time and then know that the project will just be done when it's done. As we all know with something like this once you start, it's pretty nearly impossible to stop. Yes I'm trying to stretch my dollars but I don't want to save money today that I will regret later.

Thanks to all for the good information. I will ponder this for a few days before making a final decision. I have found the original Honda service bulletin and it looks like there are some options:
1) The original pump is easily modified to improve oil flow somewhat.
2) Find a pump from a later model.
3) Install Jay's pump.

Jay your pump looks like the gold standard and although it may seem a little expensive at a first glance I think it represents good value considering the time and effort you have clearly put into it. I'm sure you aren't making a dime on these and it's really just a labor of love. Something tells me this is the route I will decide upon because I want my grandkids to ride this bike one day.
 
Troy said:
Budget!!! Oh my! That was over before it started. I've tried to to not think in terms of overall budget but rather how much I have to spend at any given time and then know that the project will just be done when it's done. As we all know with something like this once you start, it's pretty nearly impossible to stop. Yes I'm trying to stretch my dollars but I don't want to save money today that I will regret later.

Thanks to all for the good information. I will ponder this for a few days before making a final decision. I have found the original Honda service bulletin and it looks like there are some options:
1) The original pump is easily modified to improve oil flow somewhat.
2) Find a pump from a later model.
3) Install Jay's pump.

Jay your pump looks like the gold standard and although it may seem a little expensive at a first glance I think it represents good value considering the time and effort you have clearly put into it. I'm sure you aren't making a dime on these and it's really just a labor of love. Something tells me this is the route I will decide upon because I want my grandkids to ride this bike one day.
Click to expand...

It would be great to leave your bikes to your grandkids and have them enjoy them. I wish I could say I'll have grandkids that would ride some of my bikes but I'm afraid that isn't in the cards for me.

As to your 3 options, I wouldn't bother with the first one. Good used K1 through K7 pumps are easy to find, I probably have one or two myself. As to the price comparison between Jay's pump and the other well-known option (Cappellini), there's no comparison at all - Jay's pump is a bolt-on option requiring only one simple mod to the clutch cover. The Cappellini kit (with an Eaton pump used in the Cappellini kit) requires the lower case to be removed and machined for a proper mounting surface and slightly modified for the remote pickup, plus the clutch basket gear has to be machined to clear the sprocket and chain that drives the Eaton pump, and you have to ditch the centrifugal oil filter as well and use the Cappellini paper filter... all for the price of well over $600 just for the parts, nevermind the machine work. And not that it should be an issue, but the Eaton pump puts out way more pressure than the stock engine requires with typical use, about 60 lbs, which could lead to some oil leaks you typically wouldn't encounter. All in all, Jay's pump makes the most sense by far for our purposes.
 
ancientdad said:
It would be great to leave your bikes to your grandkids and have them enjoy them. I wish I could say I'll have grandkids that would ride some of my bikes but I'm afraid that isn't in the cards for me.

As to your 3 options, I wouldn't bother with the first one. Good used K1 through K7 pumps are easy to find, I probably have one or two myself. As to the price comparison between Jay's pump and the other well-known option (Cappellini), there's no comparison at all - Jay's pump is a bolt-on option requiring only one simple mod to the clutch cover. The Cappellini kit (with an Eaton pump used in the Cappellini kit) requires the lower case to be removed and machined for a proper mounting surface and slightly modified for the remote pickup, plus the clutch basket gear has to be machined to clear the sprocket and chain that drives the Eaton pump, and you have to ditch the centrifugal oil filter as well and use the Cappellini paper filter... all for the price of well over $600 just for the parts, nevermind the machine work. And not that it should be an issue, but the Eaton pump puts out way more pressure than the stock engine requires with typical use, about 60 lbs, which could lead to some oil leaks you typically wouldn't encounter. All in all, Jay's pump makes the most sense by far for our purposes.
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I'm making an assumption that one day I'll have grandkids who are interested. Right now my kids aren't even driving or riding yet so there's that.

Being new to the 450 club I wasn't aware of the Cappellini option but looking at the photos in the ebay listing it looks like Jay's is the clear winner by a mile, at least in terms of relative simplicity. When I make a decision I'll update here but I won't really be able to provide any useful feedback as I've never run the bike as it is so direct comparison won't be possible, it will be quite a while until first start up and I don't have the technological know how or expertise to evaluate the differences like the rest of you guys.

Love hanging out here though...
 
Troy said:
Love hanging out here though...
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And we're glad you're here. Hey, things could change on my end but my only child (daughter) doesn't look inclined to have any kids and I'll be 68 this year, so if she eventually does I might not be around when they're riding age.
 
I'm new to the forum and thought I would mention that I just installed one of Jay's pumps in my '70 cl450 k3. Inadequate oiling by the original oil pump had resulted in significant damage to the cams and followers in my engine. This lead me to look for a better solution and eventually to Jay's pump. The gear pump is very nicely built and, since Jay has engineered it to fit into the place of the original piston pump, the installation is simple. It really is an elegant design and makes me wonder why something similar wasn't original equipment on the bike.

With the new pump in place, I pulled the head to begin rebuilding the top end. Oddly there are no torsion bars in place. It seems someone has replaced them with coil valve springs. I have a few questions for the group about this odd setup, but I'll start a new thread to do that. Thanks for adding me to the group. Once I get the engine back together I'll report back about the pump.
 
J Schiltroth said:
I'm new to the forum and thought I would mention that I just installed one of Jay's pumps in my '70 cl450 k3. Inadequate oiling by the original oil pump had resulted in significant damage to the cams and followers in my engine. This lead me to look for a better solution and eventually to Jay's pump. The gear pump is very nicely built and, since Jay has engineered it to fit into the place of the original piston pump, the installation is simple. It really is an elegant design and makes me wonder why something similar wasn't original equipment on the bike.

With the new pump in place, I pulled the head to begin rebuilding the top end. Oddly there are no torsion bars in place. It seems someone has replaced them with coil valve springs. I have a few questions for the group about this odd setup, but I'll start a new thread to do that. Thanks for adding me to the group. Once I get the engine back together I'll report back about the pump.
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That's great to hear about Jay's oil pump, I have one myself and it is certainly a quality product. It will be interesting seeing the coil spring converted head.
 
nice work jay!

i have previously done some oil system assessments on my cb450 for racing.... and come to a similar conclusion, honda engineering is great, but they got this bit wrong in so many ways :p

a couple of comments from my experiences. apologies if i have missed anything covered previously.

first up, i am looking to purchase a pump from jay, looks like a good solution to a known problem, and is easier than me building a similar item from scratch

with a used but fully functional later model 19mm? pump, until you reach 500+rpm, there is barely enough pressure and flow to overcome the hydraulic head and leaks to actually reach the cams,
tested using a sight gauge connected to an assembled bottom end, and externally powered.

the single biggest problem i found was actually the spring loaded quill assembly from the sidecover to the centrifugal oil filter, bypassing the filter using a modified filter cover, increased the flow at idle speeds dramatically.
this leak point is also the main reason for the delay in oil getting to the cams on startup, as every time the engine is stopped, the oil filter drains, and must be refilled before oil continues through the system.

i had already looked at making a similar setup to jays(i already have motors with cappellini and modified piston pumps), but as mentioned, easier to buy one already done than build one.
now time to get on with a suitable filter bypass/alternative to fix more of the oil problems.

cheers
a
 
I’m finally getting to believe this is a good mod as well, a companion mod if you will. I had posted looking into some kind of sump pickup. The result is clear and simple engineering just isn’t visible. Certainly a complex and it’s associated cost ($$$) is doable but I just didn’t see that as a 90% solution.

Looking at the 4spd bottoms, they have a window underneath the right side main bearing but the 5 spd bottoms do not. What I did was drill through the web of the pump screen cavity into the crankshaft cavity. I drilled mine full of oil thinking that I’d change it after so any swarf would be carried out in the change. What I found was that cavity was flooded with oil at drill breakthrough. It sure made cleanup easy.

More importantly, it was revealed there was a restriction to supply with bike on the side stand, now fixed.
DAC5F775-F8B9-4B47-AB9E-A524ED0DF542.jpg F2D6CF5B-B347-4B2F-9C94-A879AA58FEEE.jpg

Shown is a single 5/16” (8mm) hole. Evolving the idea, many smaller 1/4” (6.8 mm) holes along that plane with some space between is an improvement. Anyway, a recommended improvement.

If/when I get my gauge and instrumented bearing back, I’ll get pressure numbers to back up the idea.
 
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aerowerks said:
you need to take a look at this guy:
http://www.cappellinimoto.it
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But have you ever installed a Cappellini pump in a DOHC 450? The bottom end has to be disassembled, machining on the lower case done to properly accommodate the pump mounting and machining done on the clutch basket gear to trim the width of the teeth to clear the drive for the oil pump which is just a commercially-available Eaton pump. Jay's pump requires none of that and only a 1/4" trimmed from the oil fence on the right crankcase cover, it can be installed in a couple hours with zero engine disassembly except the right crankcase cover. And it's also more than a little bit less expensive.

Edit: here's how simple it is to install - https://bit.ly/2UtmorW
 
Not sure how I came across this but there is some very interesting information.
The CL350 on ADV is hard going but also very interesting.
Of course, 'everyone' knows my theory of oil delivery and how to improve it on all the Honda twins
 
I'm here because I read :

"And it's also more than a little bit less expensive"

and then I stayed here (after further reading), copying and pasting :
"Not sure how I came across this but there is some very interesting information"

I dunno bout yous guise but, here I am, Sam
 
ancientdad said:
But have you ever installed a Cappellini pump in a DOHC 450? The bottom end has to be disassembled, machining on the lower case done to properly accommodate the pump mounting and machining done on the clutch basket gear to trim the width of the teeth to clear the drive for the oil pump which is just a commercially-available Eaton pump. Jay's pump requires none of that and only a 1/4" trimmed from the oil fence on the right crankcase cover, it can be installed in a couple hours with zero engine disassembly except the right crankcase cover. And it's also more than a little bit less expensive.

Edit: here's how simple it is to install - https://bit.ly/2UtmorW
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I meant it more to look at the site for ideas. I know the pump setup is way out of the realm of most of us, but there are other things that improve oiling.
 
aerowerks said:
I meant it more to look at the site for ideas. I know the pump setup is way out of the realm of most of us, but there are other things that improve oiling.
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Ah, then more explanatory wording would have made that clearer. Most who use Jay's pump are just street riders who simply want to improve oil flow without going to a lot of larger modifications, and since the DOHC 450 survives pretty well as is when owned and ridden by a responsible user who does proper maintenance and follows the well-known guidelines established over the years for the bike's known weaknesses, a better pump that increases flow with the least modifications is more than enough to make a significant difference in reliability.
 
I didn't buy nor install a Jay's pump jet, but I did install a Cappellini oil filter setup on my CB450 K0 (but I certainly will do in the build of the three 450's coming next). As mentioned in a thread, the clutch basket touched the filter housing what resulted in aluminium particles in the oil. After sending a few emails without any respons from them, I draw the conclusion that Cappelline stands for a lot of blabla, and in the end it's your problem (I didn't ask my money back, just wanted to report that a CB450 K0 clutch basket is just slightly bigger in diameter then the later versions, or that something else was not right). As an engineer I expected a good discussion, no ignoring behavior.
 
I'm slowly building up miles on my Jays100 gear pump. I've got about 380 miles on the pump at this point and I've been running the bike to 7000-8000 RPM regularly when the motor is warm. I'm really enjoying the 16-tooth front sprocket I installed back in September 2022 and I hope to rack up more miles this year than last, although I tend to split my riding up pretty evenly between the 450 and my other bikes.

jr79C23.jpg


I think Jay's gear pump and his whole approach to sharing his creations and ideas on this forum stands as a good example of what we enthusiasts long for. I've had some experiences similar to what Jensen described when attempting to correspond with some online vendors who make special kits for vintage bikes -- they are happy to sell you something, but likely won't give you the time of day otherwise. In contrast, Jay is actually interested in discussing his designs with anyone and is open to alternative points of view. I couldn't ask for more.
 
jensen said:
I didn't buy nor install a Jay's pump jet, but I did install a Cappellini oil filter setup on my CB450 K0 (but I certainly will do in the build of the three 450's coming next). As mentioned in a thread, the clutch basket touched the filter housing what resulted in aluminium particles in the oil. After sending a few emails without any response from them, I draw the conclusion that Cappelline stands for a lot of blabla, and in the end it's your problem (I didn't ask my money back, just wanted to report that a CB450 K0 clutch basket is just slightly bigger in diameter then the later versions, or that something else was not right). As an engineer I expected a good discussion, no ignoring behavior.
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Personally, after learning more about paper filters and doing a little research into centrifugal filters, I would not fit a paper element filter instead of the original centrifugal filter which is just 'better' at filtering.
On Yamaha XS 650 which uses a mesh screen it's a worthwhile mod to filter down to 10 micron with a paper filter
 
Personally, after learning more about paper filters and doing a little research into centrifugal filters, I would not fit a paper element filter instead of the original centrifugal filter which is just 'better' at filtering
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I partly agree, here are a few things to consider:

- Most people ride there 450's at very low RPM. At these low RPM's the force drives the particles outward isn't sufficient.
- Today's oils are powerfull detergents, no matter which oil you use. The oil keeps the particles in suspension, and even worse, at lower RPM's particles will come loose from the spinner filter surface and start their journey through the engine again.
- The spinner filter diameter is smaller then the diameter of the oil-ways in the crank. Since the circular velocity, thus the centrifugal force is higher at a larger diameter at a given RPM, particles rather stick in the crank then in the spinner filter.

As yo maybe know, I filter the oil with an extra set-up, a three stage filter type, where the last filter is filtering around 1 micron. I have to say that this filter is always clean when changing, same as the crank oil-ways. My overall conclusion is that the paper filter does do it's job well.
 
As I recall (Jensen please correct) he did all of his evaluation with a stock oil pump. That pump is essentially intermittent flow by its extend/retract function.

Id be curious how the gear pump compares in that scenario. That is, it has lower steady state flow (but twice the OEM pump average). I’m pretty meticulous in my engine assembly cleanliness and yet there is always crud in the crentrigugal “can” needing to be cleaned out. This tells me that the centrifugal system works pretty well, arguably better with steady state flow than with the piston pump intermittent flow.
 
As I recall (Jensen please correct) he did all of his evaluation with a stock oil pump. That pump is essentially intermittent flow by its extend/retract function.
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Yes, I did the evaluation with the stock pump. And like said before the detergent power and riding style have something to do with it too.
 
The original K0 had the steel outer pump usually black and the aluminium piston, mine was plain with no ring BTW. The measured pump bore was 16mm with a 12.5mm stroke which delivered 2.51ml/stroke (if everything was perfect)
I swapped over a later oil pump which was 19mm bore and I used the same con rod as the later one did not fit the earlier clutch basket bearing. This then improved the output per stroke to 3.54 ml. An improvement
of 41%. But as you say still not great. I calculated that @ 2000RPM it took 95 seconds to push around the 2.8l of oil. But that was still better that the 134 seconds the original pump took.
 
It appears that the earlier pump may be more reliable over time. That is, the later pump with aluminum housing is more susceptible to wear from oil bound contaminants where the iron housing is not. What I’ve found is if diametral clearance gets too large, it doesn’t pump anyway. Well, its losses due to leakage around the piston are well beyond what the smaller diameter, earlier pump, more consistently produces.

Sorry about the tangled verbiage. In essence a worn earlier pump (with a lower wear rate) still works better than a worn later pump (with its high wear rate). There was reference to my experiment with a piston seal ring, my clue to what was happening.
 
It wouldn't be a massive problem to ream bore on a stock pump and make a new piston from something like 7075 which is a lot harder than 6061 and actually easier to get hold of than a chunk of cast aluminium of 'correct' (unknown) grade to match original under-size or worn piston.
Phosphor bearing bronze would also be a good alternative and 'same' as majority of British bikes from 1950's - 60's
 
crazypj said:
It wouldn't be a massive problem to ream bore on a stock pump and make a new piston from something like 7075 which is a lot harder than 6061 and actually easier to get hold of than a chunk of cast aluminium of 'correct' (unknown) grade to match original under-size or worn piston.
Phosphor bearing bronze would also be a good alternative and 'same' as majority of British bikes from 1950's - 60's
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I like this idea. I wonder how much oversize would be possible.
 
Running aluminum on aluminum as a material couple is not recommended, even bathed in oil. Even brass on aluminum is not recommended. Perhaps phosphor bronze could work?

Lots of work in aerospace has been done (MMPDS, the updated Mil-Hdbk-5) is free and would give all known material properties and is free. Warning, it’s huuuuuuuge (2 1k page tomes)

As to material thickness, there is not much there to begin with but perhaps 0.5mm maximum diametral removal would still work. Surface finish is critical as well as fit.
 
I know aluminium on aluminium is a big no-no but either cast iron or phosphor bronze would be fine.
I was along the lines of thinking out loud with the earlier cast iron body oil pump.
If I remember right it can go 0.75mm oversize before walls get too thin to support piston and oil pressure because of the vibration possibility of cracking?
IIRC, max oil pressure is around 15-20psi?
 
crazypj said:
I know aluminium on aluminium is a big no-no but either cast iron or phosphor bronze would be fine.
I was along the lines of thinking out loud with the earlier cast iron body oil pump.
If I remember right it can go 0.75mm oversize before walls get too thin to support piston and oil pressure because of the vibration possibility of cracking?
IIRC, max oil pressure is around 15-20psi?
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Not really much pulsing pressure. I'd think 2.0mm OS would cut it, but really no idea.
 
ballbearian said:
So, it is more about volume of flow rate than pressure. That's just a fart.
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Pressure is needed to move the oil and it doesn't take much. With roller bearings the required pressure is quite low, while Babbitt bearings require higher pressure. With the design of the twin engines up to 1978 you had the roller crank bearings and Babbitt type cam bearings plus the cam/rocker interface. Lower pressure and high volume was a decent design.
 
2mm is total wall thickness.
Really, I haven't seen wear on the early 16mm cast iron pumps, it's only on the later aluminum body 19mm pumps that have high wear.
 
Hi All, installation thread:

Jays100 Oil Pump - Installation

I believe I purchased the last of the four prototype oil pumps that Jays100 produced for the CB450. I finally had time today to carry out the installation, so I'll share some pictures and notes about how the installation went for me. My machine is a 1974 k7 and I found it on Craigslist in...
www.vintagehondatwins.com www.vintagehondatwins.com

Can be bought here:
www.ebay.com

Oil Pump, 1965-76, Honda CB450, CL450, 500T | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Oil Pump, 1965-76, Honda CB450, CL450, 500T at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
www.ebay.com
 
Feel free to pm, I may be slow but will reply within a day or so.

The installation thread was an independent endeavor with only the instructions. They’re detailed, if you have a modicum of mechanical ability (and the tools), you can install inside of 2 hours. But, take the day and have fun!
J
 
I am going to have to limit myself on this forum. Every time I start to read something I see something way cool that I go "ooooh that would be so cool on my build". Not sure if my pocketbook (or wife) can handle it all! o_O
 
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