Since the primary circuit is a set of windings not connected to ground, it shouldn't matter. Odd to hear orange and white wires on a coil, unlikely colors for both polarities. I assume no markings molded into the coil body near the wires to help.
-
Don't overlook our Welcome Package, it contains many links to important and helpful information about functions at VHT like posting pictures and sending PMs (private messages), as well as finding the parts you need.
AD
My CL175K7
- Thread starter Richard Pitman
- Start date
On these 360 degree points bikes, the polarity of the ignition coil primary wires is not a factor in anything other than which sparkplug is firing center electrode to outside (adjustable /bent)electrode, and which plug is firing FROM outside TO center.......
For some inexplicable and idiosyncratic reason (even though theoretically it makes no difference), some engines seem to run better with a specific spark jump directionality.....
The directionality can be reversed by either swapping plug wires or coil primary wires.....
It MAY be a real factor once the solid-state components of an e-ignition are factored in.......
Richard Pitman
Veteran Member
I have a CL/CB360 stator fitted to this engine. I carefully fitted a new TDC/F pointer to it, added some threaded inserts to mount it. What I didn't do was to check the stator plug. I just assumed that the three alternator wires and neutral gear wire would be the same as on the 175 stator.
So, after reverting to points based ignition and fitting new exhaust port gaskets, I started the engine again, and put my meter across the battery. Around 12.3 volts engine off, with ignition off. Engine idling,12.5 ish volts. However, revving to 6k only saw the volts rise to 12.6, not the 13+ volts that I would expect with the modern combined reg rec.
And then it dawned on me, the reason that my neutral lamp blew soon after starting the engine. Generator wire connected to the lamp. Also explains the low generator voltage readings. Just need to swap the two spade connectors over in the alternator plug and try again. Hope it hasn't fried my Charlies ignition.
So, after reverting to points based ignition and fitting new exhaust port gaskets, I started the engine again, and put my meter across the battery. Around 12.3 volts engine off, with ignition off. Engine idling,12.5 ish volts. However, revving to 6k only saw the volts rise to 12.6, not the 13+ volts that I would expect with the modern combined reg rec.
And then it dawned on me, the reason that my neutral lamp blew soon after starting the engine. Generator wire connected to the lamp. Also explains the low generator voltage readings. Just need to swap the two spade connectors over in the alternator plug and try again. Hope it hasn't fried my Charlies ignition.
But you did say it ran with the Charlie's ignition on it with the 360 stator installed, right? I'd think it would either run on not run, probably nothing in between if the electronics got fried. Sounds like once the neutral bulb was burned out the system was simply running with less stator coils involved giving the lower voltage reading. I probably would have made the same assumption about the alternator plug since they're both the round style, but at least the neutral light mystery is cleared up.
Richard Pitman
Veteran Member
No, I'm sure Charlie will be OK, as you say, electronics are pretty binary in operation, either work or don't work.
However, this is the same engine that I've been running in my SL175, on contact breakers that time. I'm wondering now if this was the reason for that engine not running properly, simply the battery not getting a charge.
However, this is the same engine that I've been running in my SL175, on contact breakers that time. I'm wondering now if this was the reason for that engine not running properly, simply the battery not getting a charge.
Richard Pitman
Veteran Member
Wires swapped in stator plug and new neutral lamp fitted. Neutral lamp now works as expected, but stator still isn't charging properly, same numbers as before. I've checked it for continuity and shorts, all checks out OK, so I think it something do to do with the yellow and white wires not being in the proper places in the stator plug. Impossible to tell the colours apart, so it seemed quickest to pull the 360 stator and fit a spare CB200 stator, which is a direct swap for the 175 part, with a slightly higher output. Got it all stripped and ready to go back, ran out of time as real life got in the way, off into town to get our winter flu jabs. All done very efficiently at the grandstand down on Worcester (horse) race course.
Richard Pitman
Veteran Member
And it would not start. Wasted an afternoon checking the ignition timing, new plugs etc. Plenty of fuel in the tank, enough for the bike to run on reserve setting. Cracked the float bowl drain screws, fuel dribbled out, so 'obviously' fuel was getting through.
Still wouldn't start, and plugs, when removed to check spark didn't smell of fuel. At this point I gave up and left it for a couple of days.
Today, I'd convinced myself that I'd got blocked jets, disturbed sediment when draining and refilling the tank. Dropped a float bowl - completely empty. Tap filter had a bit of dirt in it.
To cut a long story short, it's the fuel tap. Blocked in the reserve position. Bike started and ran fine on Main position.
Still wouldn't start, and plugs, when removed to check spark didn't smell of fuel. At this point I gave up and left it for a couple of days.
Today, I'd convinced myself that I'd got blocked jets, disturbed sediment when draining and refilling the tank. Dropped a float bowl - completely empty. Tap filter had a bit of dirt in it.
To cut a long story short, it's the fuel tap. Blocked in the reserve position. Bike started and ran fine on Main position.
Funny how sometimes the somewhat obvious is one of the last things you check. Human nature I guess
Richard Pitman
Veteran Member
On the positive side, the CB200 stator works fine, and I'm getting 13.89 volts when the engine is revved to around 6K.
Richard Pitman
Veteran Member
Just bought a NOS CL175 exhaust system ( upper pipe and muffler ) in David Silvers auction, for a VERY good price. Fully expected my maximum bid to be beaten at the last second, as similar NOS pipes are up for 300 USD on the US ebay site.
It's a K4 pipe, but the only difference from the K6/K7part is the mounting points for the rear heatshield.
( I spent a shedload more for a good used system which turned out to be for a sloper CL175/160. Still sat in my loft, will relist it one day )
It's a K4 pipe, but the only difference from the K6/K7part is the mounting points for the rear heatshield.
( I spent a shedload more for a good used system which turned out to be for a sloper CL175/160. Still sat in my loft, will relist it one day )
Hondaholic
Veteran Member
Damn. I've never known about David Silvers' auctions.
Never even seen them promoted and I'm on their website from time-to-time and also a member of Honda Owners' Club (GB). Perhaps it's just because I spend too much time on eBay and Gumtree!
Richard Pitman
Veteran Member
That auction was drawn to my attention by an email notification from Ebay, who noticed my interest in CL175 parts. Completely fortuitous, I'd not looked for CL175 exhausts recently. I never look at Gumtree, I assumed that it was a hotbed of dodgy dealing, and I don't do Facebook either.
Anyway, the pipe arrived the very next day by FedEx, superbly packed, in brand new condition. Differences from K4 to K7. Pipes are the same shape, and main mounting point on back of silencer is the same. Tail pipe has a wider bore outlet than the later pipe, which can only be a good thing !
The heat shield mounts only line up at two points. Easily sorted without damaging original parts, I'll fabricate some adaptors, mig some captive nuts to stainless steel plate.
Still pleased about the price I paid, having looked CMNSL prices.
Anyway, the pipe arrived the very next day by FedEx, superbly packed, in brand new condition. Differences from K4 to K7. Pipes are the same shape, and main mounting point on back of silencer is the same. Tail pipe has a wider bore outlet than the later pipe, which can only be a good thing !
The heat shield mounts only line up at two points. Easily sorted without damaging original parts, I'll fabricate some adaptors, mig some captive nuts to stainless steel plate.
Still pleased about the price I paid, having looked CMNSL prices.
Hondaholic
Veteran Member
I think we can only use CMSL in an emergency now; since Brexit, prices are VAT loaded PLUS the shipping costs make the purchase inequitable.:sad: Pre-Brexit I used them a lot and got a heap of Honda Melody parts, including a N.O.S. seat, when I was on a moped kick!
Richard Pitman
Veteran Member
A set of CL175K4 pipes, minus silencer, turned up the other day. I only actually wanted the lower pipe, which has polished up reasonably well, except for the usual CL rusted area behind the hidden front bend. Mated this to my NOS K4 upper pipe and silencer.
Next job was to attach the K7 heatshield to the (different - why did Honda feel the need to change things ? ) K4 mounts. I made up an adaptor plate from stainless steel, captive nuts fixed on with my usual immaculate <joke> welding. I had to trim a bit off the K4 mount to make clearance for this.
Heat shield then fits nicely.
I had to make a small adaptor for the front heatshield, then it all went together quite well, I thought.
Next job was to attach the K7 heatshield to the (different - why did Honda feel the need to change things ? ) K4 mounts. I made up an adaptor plate from stainless steel, captive nuts fixed on with my usual immaculate <joke> welding. I had to trim a bit off the K4 mount to make clearance for this.
Heat shield then fits nicely.
I had to make a small adaptor for the front heatshield, then it all went together quite well, I thought.
Saru
Veteran Member
Beautiful, what a great resource David Silver is, we are truly lucky.
Hondaholic
Veteran Member
Even better resource is the dual rubbish bin workbench!!:biggrin:
Oh, looking good, Richard!!
Nice work there Richard
Richard Pitman
Veteran Member
It's normally a three bin workbench but it was collection day. Those bins get a lot of stick, random holes drilled in the lids, paint over spray etc. Just that the lights better out there.
And did I ever mention, the brickwork behind is my handiwork. Like my welding, jack of all trades, master of none ….
Richard Pitman
Veteran Member
A little more progress. The end of the lower (used) exhaust pipe was badly corroded and holed, in the area where it enters the silencer, under the gasket. I resolved this by getting some 32mm OD stainless tube, and inserting this inside the end of the pipe, nice tight fit. 1.5mm thick tube will reduce the internal diameter of the exhaust pipe at this point, from 32mm down to 29mm, but I really can't see that as an issue, as things immediately get a lot tighter inside the silencer itself.
I got a new pipe to silencer gasket from Wemoto, who sell a range of these gaskets, made of some sort of black slippery material ( graphite ? ). I chose one that was 41mm OD 35mm ID, 25mm in length, and this produced a nice tight fit.
Exhaust and Collector Box Seal OD 41mm ID 35mm Length 25mm Parts at Wemoto - The UK's No.1 On-Line Motorcycle Parts Retailer
I did originally think about getting the correct Honda gasket, part number via CMNSL, 18391-MBO-891. David Silver carry this part. However, a Google search showed this part as being 34 x 29 x 25mm, which would clearly be far to small. Also, at 16UKP vs 7UKP for the aftermarket part, not worth the risk.
Original strap that connected silencer to frame tube bracket was missing, so I made one, crude but effective.
I got a new pipe to silencer gasket from Wemoto, who sell a range of these gaskets, made of some sort of black slippery material ( graphite ? ). I chose one that was 41mm OD 35mm ID, 25mm in length, and this produced a nice tight fit.
Exhaust and Collector Box Seal OD 41mm ID 35mm Length 25mm Parts at Wemoto - The UK's No.1 On-Line Motorcycle Parts Retailer
I did originally think about getting the correct Honda gasket, part number via CMNSL, 18391-MBO-891. David Silver carry this part. However, a Google search showed this part as being 34 x 29 x 25mm, which would clearly be far to small. Also, at 16UKP vs 7UKP for the aftermarket part, not worth the risk.
Original strap that connected silencer to frame tube bracket was missing, so I made one, crude but effective.
Looking good Richard. The restriction in the pipe, while not ideal, will have very little effect.
Richard Pitman
Veteran Member
Finally, the sun is out and it's relatively warm outside. Fitted the CL exhaust this afternoon. Looks pretty, but it really is a ridiculous design. Origami style skills needed to get the header pipes and collets into the cylinder head, grab rail has to come off to access the rear hanger strap bolt. Left hand air filter removal now impossible without first removing the exhaust system.
I've not run the engine with it fitted yet, fuel system needs looking at. Petrol flows from tap in Main position, but not in Res, so tap must have some sediment in it. New hoses and in line filters ready to fit, along with a make / break fitting for the balance pipe.
But it does look pretty.....
I've not run the engine with it fitted yet, fuel system needs looking at. Petrol flows from tap in Main position, but not in Res, so tap must have some sediment in it. New hoses and in line filters ready to fit, along with a make / break fitting for the balance pipe.
But it does look pretty.....
Ah, the love/hate relationship with CL pipes... but yes, they do look good.
AndrewJK
Veteran Member
Hello, what is that cover for between headers on first picture?
Edited: sorry, nice photo with good perspective. This is starter cover of course.
Edited: sorry, nice photo with good perspective. This is starter cover of course.
Richard Pitman
Veteran Member
CB2NR
Veteran Member
Nice work, Richard. Bike looks fantastic!
Richard Pitman
Veteran Member
New fuel lines with inline filters fitted. Battery refitted after winter storage. Filtered fuel through an old tee shirt in a funnel.
And it runs again, first start with the new exhaust. Very throaty exhaust note, wonder if earlier pipes ( this one is a K4 ) were less restrictive ? The first CB250's were definitely louder than the slightly later ones.
And it runs again, first start with the new exhaust. Very throaty exhaust note, wonder if earlier pipes ( this one is a K4 ) were less restrictive ? The first CB250's were definitely louder than the slightly later ones.
Finally, the sun is out and it's relatively warm outside. Fitted the CL exhaust this afternoon. Looks pretty, but it really is a ridiculous design. Origami style skills needed to get the header pipes and collets into the cylinder head, grab rail has to come off to access the rear hanger strap bolt. Left hand air filter removal now impossible without first removing the exhaust system.
I've not run the engine with it fitted yet, fuel system needs looking at. Petrol flows from tap in Main position, but not in Res, so tap must have some sediment in it. New hoses and in line filters ready to fit, along with a make / break fitting for the balance pipe.
But it does look pretty.....
Richard,
On my sloper CL175 if you remove the bolt that holds the exhaust at the rear and middle frame positions and loosen the header nuts, the exhaust system is flexible at that point. I can now remove the left hand side cover without removing the exhaust.
That makes more sense, as Honda wouldn't design it where the exhaust needs to come off to change an air filter.
Richard Pitman
Veteran Member
I agree, it doesn't need to come off entirely. The hardest part is wrangling the header pipes into the cylinder head, getting the keepers and collars in the right place and order. As you say, just loosening the header nuts allows movement without having to pull the pipes out of the cylinder head.
I still think it's a poor design though, made more difficult by the one piece right hand pipe. If both headers were separate from the silencer it would be much easier, albeit with one extra joint to keep sealed.
I still think it's a poor design though, made more difficult by the one piece right hand pipe. If both headers were separate from the silencer it would be much easier, albeit with one extra joint to keep sealed.
2wheel
Veteran Member
Very sharp looking bike Richard. I love the looks of the CL. There Is one for sale near me that’s very nice but it’s only a 125.
FYI If that is a early sloper CL125 it is a rare and somewhat valuable bike, as I believe there were not a lot made in that configuration, or that survive today.
I was thinking that myself, the CL125A and SS125A were only in the US for a couple years from '67 to '69
2wheel
Veteran Member
pic of said bike. Owner told me it’s a 125 but I don’t know if that’s accurate or not. I didn’t go look at it.
that's a 1974 CL 200 judging by paint and exhaust appearance/differences.....
2wheel
Veteran Member
Thank you sir. I didn’t go look at it. He is asking 2800.
Yes that is a later model of whatever upright motor design. If you do come across an early late 60's CL series sloper style engine with a good upswept exhaust that would be worth investigating for sure.
Richard Pitman
Veteran Member
First ride of the season. Didn't go well. A couple of miles down the road it dropped onto one cylinder. Obviously a spark plug problem I thought. Limped back home in Honda 90 mode. Changed the plug, which was clean and dry. Empty float bowl.
Only a drip of fuel through the float valve, tap on, float bowl off. Nice thing about these Wincycles carbs are the captive needle valves, linked to the solid nylon floats. Needles have Viton tips. Removed the floats and needle. Still only a drip of fuel through the needle valve seat, so I unscrewed this. No debris in the valve seat, but good flow of fuel with the seat removed, hopefully any dirt in the line flushed out.
Rebuilt and working correctly again, off for another quick blast, 9k through the gears for a couple of miles, then back on to one cylinder, limped home again. Must need to be flushed through a bit more. I have some good quality inline filters fitted, so I reckon the dirt must be downstream from these.
Another aside. The CL is noticeably heavier than the SL, so I think the SL will really fly, on CB gearing (sprockets) and road tyres, it'll need that CB front wheel and TLS brake. Once I get it running ….
Only a drip of fuel through the float valve, tap on, float bowl off. Nice thing about these Wincycles carbs are the captive needle valves, linked to the solid nylon floats. Needles have Viton tips. Removed the floats and needle. Still only a drip of fuel through the needle valve seat, so I unscrewed this. No debris in the valve seat, but good flow of fuel with the seat removed, hopefully any dirt in the line flushed out.
Rebuilt and working correctly again, off for another quick blast, 9k through the gears for a couple of miles, then back on to one cylinder, limped home again. Must need to be flushed through a bit more. I have some good quality inline filters fitted, so I reckon the dirt must be downstream from these.
Another aside. The CL is noticeably heavier than the SL, so I think the SL will really fly, on CB gearing (sprockets) and road tyres, it'll need that CB front wheel and TLS brake. Once I get it running ….
Richard earlier on the page you posted about the fuel tap not flowing on the reserve position and having the new fuel filters in line. It would be good to check the system all the way back to the petcock for good flow with the lines off the carbs. Sometimes if the fuel lines don't have a good downhill flow orientation that too can cause a stoppage of the fuel downstream to your carb.
Richard Pitman
Veteran Member
I cleared the fuel tap out when I fitted the new fuel hoses and new inline filters, and I get a good flow from both spigots on the fuel tap. I also removed the gauze filter inside the tap bowl, I'm hoping that the inline filters will perform the same job. Before doing the above I was only getting a dribble out of the fuel tap.
Sitting here at my PC, all I can taste and smell is petrol, despite washing my hands and having several cups of tea ...
Sitting here at my PC, all I can taste and smell is petrol, despite washing my hands and having several cups of tea ...
Yes I have been there with the gasoline smell. When I rebuild carbs now and test them first for leaks before an installation. I use alcohol.. no not the pub type. The isopropyl type, as it is much easier on the hands and senses.
Richard Pitman
Veteran Member
The joys of English weather. This time last week I was on a beach in Devon, tee shirt on, under clear blue skies. Today, working in my lock up garage, layered up with fleece and coat, snow blowing in through the open door.
Anyway, the fuel flow problem is solved. Belatedly following the advice given above, after wasting time stripping the offending card, checked the flow through the new fuel line and inline filters. And there it was, virtually zero flow through the line to the dry carb. Replaced both lines with new hose without inline filters, replaced the gauze in the fuel tap, and all is well again.
No chance of a test ride today, what with the snow. I shall be pulling the alleged 'high quality' filter apart to see where the blockage lies. Now to wash my mouth out and suck some mints, get rid of the petrol after taste, must be a better way of blowing through pipes and passages. Agree about the isopropanol, we used it by the 25 litre barrel back in the lab, nice stuff.
Anyway, the fuel flow problem is solved. Belatedly following the advice given above, after wasting time stripping the offending card, checked the flow through the new fuel line and inline filters. And there it was, virtually zero flow through the line to the dry carb. Replaced both lines with new hose without inline filters, replaced the gauze in the fuel tap, and all is well again.
No chance of a test ride today, what with the snow. I shall be pulling the alleged 'high quality' filter apart to see where the blockage lies. Now to wash my mouth out and suck some mints, get rid of the petrol after taste, must be a better way of blowing through pipes and passages. Agree about the isopropanol, we used it by the 25 litre barrel back in the lab, nice stuff.
Richard Pitman
Veteran Member
After the bike show, decided to get my CL out for a run. Catalogue of disasters.
First off, last time I turned off the ignition, for some mad reason I left it in the Park position, flat battery. Swapped this for a charged one and set off.
A mile up the road it ground to a halt and would not restart, so I pushed it home. Nice chap in a car offered assistance, but I was nearly home by then. No fuel in the float bowls again, no flow from the fuel tap.
Removed the tap bowl and filter guaze, fuel flowed freely then. Replaced the bowl, leaving the filter out, good flow at the tap outlets again. Although the filter appears clean ??? might be relevant to 911Hillclimbers issue ?
Went for another ride, circling the neighbour hood so that I wouldn't have so far to push, but it ran perfectly.
Back home again, left it idling on the side stand ( my bad ) while I went get a screwdriver to adjust the idle. Returned to find a puddle of oil. Needs a new O ring on the lower alternator cover fixing screw.
On a positive note, the new old stock exhaust sounds great.
First off, last time I turned off the ignition, for some mad reason I left it in the Park position, flat battery. Swapped this for a charged one and set off.
A mile up the road it ground to a halt and would not restart, so I pushed it home. Nice chap in a car offered assistance, but I was nearly home by then. No fuel in the float bowls again, no flow from the fuel tap.
Removed the tap bowl and filter guaze, fuel flowed freely then. Replaced the bowl, leaving the filter out, good flow at the tap outlets again. Although the filter appears clean ??? might be relevant to 911Hillclimbers issue ?
Went for another ride, circling the neighbour hood so that I wouldn't have so far to push, but it ran perfectly.
Back home again, left it idling on the side stand ( my bad ) while I went get a screwdriver to adjust the idle. Returned to find a puddle of oil. Needs a new O ring on the lower alternator cover fixing screw.
On a positive note, the new old stock exhaust sounds great.
Ah, the little things that crop up... always an adventure on our vintage bikes. Curious fuel issue too.
Number13
Member
These little machines keep us busy eh. My red cb200 didn't like the wake up from it's slumber this time round. First start up saw fuel pouring out of one of the overflows. A strip down sorted it. Wish I could ride and find more wrong just now. A bad episode of BPPV has left me spinning for the last few weeks. I'm on a slow re-set and some time away from riding again I fear.
Have you tried this routine for the BPPV? https://medlineplus.gov/ency/articl... Epley maneuver is used,the edge of the table.
Number13
Member
Hi there and thanks for your concern. Yes I've tried a few of the suggested routines in order to try to level this up. My son is a doctor in emergency medicine and tells me they work for some of the people some of the time. It seems mine is a bit of a slow burner and progress is slow. I'm doing them anyway on the basis it can't do any harm. I feel a lot better now than when it started. I woke like someone had my head in a cocktail shaker. Best regards, Russ.
Richard Pitman
Veteran Member
Small world, isn't it. My wife periodically suffers from vertigo ( and gets very annoyed with ignorant folks who think that vertigo is a fear of heights ) and gets it sorted out by the Epley manoeuvre. Took a while to diagnose this, physio at the local hospital first helped her with this. Since then, we get a GP at our local practice to do this. Not all of them are trained in this, and of course we have the usual struggle to get an appointment. After the manoeuvre, she takes things very steady for a day or two, sleeps propped up in bed. Caused by crystals floating around in the fluid in the inner ear, bit like shaking up a snow globe.
Number13
Member
Hi Richard and firstly sorry for throwing your thread out at a tangent. This weeks weather will at least give me another week to get my internal gyroscope back to something like. I take note re sleeping at an incline. I think that will help as it's certainly worse in the mornings. I must say my bikes are looking good for the extra polish/ preparation.
Richard Pitman
Veteran Member
No problems with thread drift, if anyone is a frequent offender it's me.
Regarding sleeping propped up. The theory that has been advanced to us is that the Epley manoeuvre gets the crystals / ear rocks to settle in part of the semi circular canal where they don't interfere with the balance mechanism. Once in place, if not disturbed for a day or two, they get stuck in this area and don't float about.
Regarding sleeping propped up. The theory that has been advanced to us is that the Epley manoeuvre gets the crystals / ear rocks to settle in part of the semi circular canal where they don't interfere with the balance mechanism. Once in place, if not disturbed for a day or two, they get stuck in this area and don't float about.
Richard Pitman
Veteran Member
My oil leak turned out to be not as simple as I first thought. Hot engine, bike on side stand, oil is leaking from generator side case, not just the bottom screw on the side cover.
My fault, I'd previously had the cover on and off several times, messing about with different stators reusing the gasket each time.
I have a new gasket in my parts stash, simple 10 minute job with CB pipes installed. Not so simple with CL pipes ….
My fault, I'd previously had the cover on and off several times, messing about with different stators reusing the gasket each time.
I have a new gasket in my parts stash, simple 10 minute job with CB pipes installed. Not so simple with CL pipes ….
Richard Pitman
Veteran Member
Got the gasket changed this afternoon. Managed to get the cover on and off by just loosening the exhaust system, as suggested by Flying900 for access to air filter, just enough room then to wiggle the cover off. Old gasket had been displaced along the lower edge, as evidenced by elongated screw holes in gasket.
Pipes are so tight against the engine that there is not enough clearance to refit the clutch adjuster nut, had to loosen the pipes again to refit this, annoying.
Hopefully this has cured the leak. Fresh oil, last change only 85 miles earlier.
Time to wake up the CB175 now.
Pipes are so tight against the engine that there is not enough clearance to refit the clutch adjuster nut, had to loosen the pipes again to refit this, annoying.
Hopefully this has cured the leak. Fresh oil, last change only 85 miles earlier.
Time to wake up the CB175 now.