bilbikek411
Veteran Member
Yeah,that's looking very good Brody 
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1974 CB450 - maintenance, repair, and upgrade log
- Thread starter stl360+450
- Start date
stl360+450
Veteran Member
Thanks, Bill!Yeah,that's looking very good Brody
I am now becoming paranoid about painting in humid conditions. I watched for low humidity and activated a can of SprayMax on Tuesday with 50% humidity showing on my weather app along with an air temp of 94 °F. I started to spray and could tell it was sporadically trapping moisture in tiny blisters. I started worrying that I had ruined the work up to that point and decided to shut down immediately. I have [for now] decided to test paint something small before I apply paint to the object of interest.
I wet sanded the tank lightly the next day and waited for better conditions to spray. Some reading suggested I should pay more attention to the dew point and try to have as large a gap between air temp and dew point as possible (15 to 20 °F). I managed to use the rest of that can before it expired and then did a little more wet sanding before using a second can to apply more clear this afternoon. I don't get a great finish out of the can, so I figured the more coats, the better. The picture below was taken in the most flattering light I could muster — the clear has substantial orange peel right now.
Edit: I should probably mention that this paint has some flake in it. (Duplicolor Brilliant Black Pearl)
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RobMan
Veteran Member
Man that bites that you are having this much trouble. Do you think you can rub the orange peel out?
bilbikek411
Veteran Member
Brody, I waited for a fairly dry day this past Spring.
I used a can of 2K clear which I had for 2 years.. not good.
I sanded off the hazy looking clear and bought a fresh can(I specified Fresh!)of 2K clear and went with heavy coats on a warm,dry day;it came out very good. 2K clearcoat likes to be applied quite wet,imo.
I used a can of 2K clear which I had for 2 years.. not good.
I sanded off the hazy looking clear and bought a fresh can(I specified Fresh!)of 2K clear and went with heavy coats on a warm,dry day;it came out very good. 2K clearcoat likes to be applied quite wet,imo.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
I was afraid to go too heavy with any single coat with the humidity we have here, but I certainly can't argue with your results. Your tank turned out great. And that's without polishing? Just self-leveling after wet application? Thanks for the advice.
Polishing is my weakest skill in this area, but I'll do my best. I will let it cure for a week or so and then I'll do some light cutting, polishing, and buffing. Usually I'm satisfied with a mild orange peel — oranges wish they had a peel like this tank has now!
I think it would go much better in a climate controlled environment.
bilbikek411
Veteran Member
Brody,get a Dry day & put it on with heavy sweeping motions.
Yes,that was put on wet w/ no polishing 6 months ago on a warm 70 degree,dry day w/ a bit of wind:this is on my daily driver bike.
I had 'orange peel' caused by using an old can and trying to 'go light' and 'stretch' the amount on my first attempt.. I scuffed it and waited(a couple days)until later,then did it over.
Doesn't take long to empty a 12oz rattle can of it when applied liberally with a nice fresh can on a dry day;I would like to have had a 2nd Fresh can ready to do my side covers at the same time!
The more hot and dry it is outside,the better this stuff likes it.
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RobMan
Veteran Member
One thing I miss about not living close to an Air Force base as a retiree is access to the auto hobby shop and some hobby shops even had paint booths you could use for a nominal fee. A friend of mine painted a car I was selling and it looked so good I hated to get rid of it but I did.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
That is very cool. I could maybe get away with painting in my detached garage, but it would take some effort. I have a couple of those floor A/C units and if both of them were running in the garage I could probably create a hospitable environment.One thing I miss about not living close to an Air Force base as a retiree is access to the auto hobby shop and some hobby shops even had paint booths you could use for a nominal fee. A friend of mine painted a car I was selling and it looked so good I hated to get rid of it but I did.
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RobMan
Veteran Member
Depending on how quick you want to get this painted it might be worth it. Are the AC units ones that collect moisture in a container or do you have to setup a drain line outside?
stl360+450
Veteran Member
They blow warm air out a window though a flexible duct, so I assume the moisture is dispersed in that exhaust because they do not have a drain line or any container that can be removed. I believe they both have a dehumidifier setting as well. The normal usage for me is for small upstairs rooms where the central A/C is ineffective.
RobMan
Veteran Member
You could just use the dehumidifier setting for a few hours and if the garage is not to big and reasonably sealed should get the humidity down to a lower and stable level.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
That's a good idea. I think I'll let it cure for a bit and see what I can do with it first. I'm able to ride the bike with a spare tank for the time being, so no real rush.
RobMan
Veteran Member
Of course there is the one pesky problem of this plan and that is the paint fumes in an enclosed space unless you happen to have a good mask or respirator.
The humidity is a killer. I tried to get everything as dry as possible when I did the tank on the CX and it's starting to haze already My dehumidifier filled a 5 gal bucket in the time it took to dry to the touch and still - it'll be time to wet sand and recut/polish very soon. Failing that, it'll be waiting until winter and respraying. CB tank - no issues, but I did that during a cold snap and heated the shop up with infrared heaters to get it to 70 degrees. The application temp window for that stuff is something like 71-75 degrees per the instructions. I think we get about 4 hours of that per year.
Other than the orange peel that you should be able to minimize with some effort (and possibly fully remove if you're careful), it looks good. I noticed right away it wasn't a solid color and when you enlarge the pic you can easily see the fine metallic in it. It should look great out in the sun once rubbed out.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
Thanks, Tom. I hope it will polish up nice.
I added the note about the flake because it could look like trapped moisture if someone was expecting solid black.
Good progress, I think that orange peel should sand out and that metal flake looks great. Humidity adds a lot of extra work
The longer you let the Spray Max cure the better, seems to take weeks before it is completely hardened. I'd try living with the orange peel until winter and then work on the peel.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
Sanding clear coat and the subsequent polishing is still an area of development for me. I lack faith in the thickness of the clear coat and tend to stop sanding before I've sufficiently flattened the orange peel. This is more or less what I did today and, Jim, you were too late to prevent it. This is how the tank sits, except for the fact that it is now installed on the bike. The orange peel is a little smoother, but still quite visible. And, as Jim suggested, I can work more on the finish at a later time.
I decided to buy one of the replacement gas cap hinge pins that uses an e-clip and was astonished to find that the e-clips included in the package were too large. Luckily, I had ordered a box of metric e-clips recently with several different sizes and was able to find one that worked.
On a separate topic, short rides recently continued to leave me with the impression that the replacement springs I chose for the spark advance are too soft. It's hard to put the reasoning into words, but I decided to make a change while swapping the tank and side covers. The previous springs were 20 mm long, with a coil diameter of 6 mm, and a wire diameter of 0.7 mm. There are about 12 active coils. The new springs are also 20 mm long and have the same 6 mm coil diameter, but use a wire diameter of 0.8 mm and have about 11 active coils. They also feel stiffer by the finger-pull test, as they should. I only went up and down the block so far, but liked the way that felt. I plan to ride the bike to work tomorrow morning and will report back afterwards.
I decided to buy one of the replacement gas cap hinge pins that uses an e-clip and was astonished to find that the e-clips included in the package were too large. Luckily, I had ordered a box of metric e-clips recently with several different sizes and was able to find one that worked.
On a separate topic, short rides recently continued to leave me with the impression that the replacement springs I chose for the spark advance are too soft. It's hard to put the reasoning into words, but I decided to make a change while swapping the tank and side covers. The previous springs were 20 mm long, with a coil diameter of 6 mm, and a wire diameter of 0.7 mm. There are about 12 active coils. The new springs are also 20 mm long and have the same 6 mm coil diameter, but use a wire diameter of 0.8 mm and have about 11 active coils. They also feel stiffer by the finger-pull test, as they should. I only went up and down the block so far, but liked the way that felt. I plan to ride the bike to work tomorrow morning and will report back afterwards.
Tank is looking good. Enjoy the ride tomorrow.
I realize it's hard to quantify, but what did you feel that made you decide to change them? Did the feeling give you the impression it was advancing more too soon?
stl360+450
Veteran Member
I think it was similar to the feeling that my worn out stock springs gave, which I would describe as bouncy. When starting from a stop, it felt better to bring the motor speed up quickly to stay near/at full advance and avoid the bouncy feeling in between. This likely also means it was advancing early, but I think the advance angle tended to oscillate slightly as it increased. I should pull out the timing light to investigate more scientifically.
If you have a way to set up a camera for while you're checking the timing with a strobe, it would be interesting to see that on video.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
With a protractor, mark the rotor for degrees advance and a tachometer, then an advance curve chart could be plotted.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
I think I could probably do it without marking the rotor, similar to what I did in this thread for a CB200 rotor. I would need to work with extracted frames from a video, though, so it would be time consuming.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
My CB450 probably finds my commute pretty boring. It's only about four miles and the speed limit never exceeds 35 mph, not to mention several four-way stops and lights. All this to say that I can't really put the ignition through the paces on this ride. The new advance springs performed well enough, though.
I'm happy with the paint despite the orange peel and I like how the white decal goes with the black. The fact that the decal has the right shape hopefully adds a bit of respectability to the non-factory color.
The trip home was even less exciting because it was raining and I strive to be extra cautious on wet roads.
I'm happy with the paint despite the orange peel and I like how the white decal goes with the black. The fact that the decal has the right shape hopefully adds a bit of respectability to the non-factory color.
The trip home was even less exciting because it was raining and I strive to be extra cautious on wet roads.
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It looks great put together, and I agree on the respectability of the paint. I've always felt that if you're going to deviate from a factory color, it always looks much better to copy the original style and stripe format as if it was an optional color that year. I mean, who would really know? Few people can even properly identify these bikes much less validate a factory color.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
Yes, maybe not worth getting that much detail.
Just knowing what rpm full advance happened (2.5-3.0K ?) would be helpful for selecting spring strength.
Just knowing what rpm full advance happened (2.5-3.0K ?) would be helpful for selecting spring strength.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
I always get a kick out of the drivers who pull up alongside at a stop light and say "I had one of those!" and then proceed to say something that makes it pretty clear they had a different model or maybe even a different brand motorcycle.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
When I'm on my Dream, I get, "Is that an Indian?"
Gotta be the fishtails.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
That's pretty funny. I mean, there are Indians that look like souped up bicycles.
Things I've been told are like "I had one of those, but mine was a _______." You can fill in the blank with just about anything: Yamaha, Nighthawk, four-cylinder, two-stroke, 750, etc.
Possibly because of the red frame, I've been asked if my 450 was a BSA, a CB77 or a CL77, or even a 350. Pretty clear these people are looking at the overall picture and not the unique engine design that would give it away to pretty much any Honda enthusiast.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
Yup. And I imagine, like me, you're still happy that the bike is being appreciated and, in most cases, recognized at least as a vintage motorcycle.
Yes, and it always generates interesting conversation if the circumstances allow. It amazes me that happens even at the Speedway gas station local bike hangout on Sunday mornings, most who go there are pretty familiar with bikes overall. And it comes from older guys too sometimes. And it's always fun to watch a 20- or 30-something walk by it, stop for a second and look at it, then walk on because either they have zero idea what it is, or they simply don't recognize the real age of the bike and the significance of it still being around.
wentwest
Veteran Member
Mostly with older people there's still a mental image of what we knew as a UJM. That's all they know.
Not exactly the same, but it just occurred to me that my Dad did the same thing with the CL360s that came in the unpopular (at least in the Tampa area then) Muskat Green Metallic in the first year and the dealership owner gave him 3 to 5 sets at a time to repaint Candy Red with stock stripes. And of course they sold really well, "resale red" as the custom car guys call it.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
Those look really good, too. It's interesting to me that they wanted all of them to be red. Do you think they wanted customers to think red was the factory color?
Would be interesting to see one of those tanks pop up online in a forum, on eBay, or wherever. You'd know exactly where it came from.
Would be interesting to see one of those tanks pop up online in a forum, on eBay, or wherever. You'd know exactly where it came from.
It was during Honda's heyday in the early '70s so I don't think there was any concern about the customer wondering if it was a factory color or not, and I honestly don't recall if they left any of them the original green. The color was so disliked at the dealership that we all called them "green weenies", but of course like the Black Bomber what was once considered hideous is now well-liked for nostalgic reasons. I just remember them selling like crazy after they were painted red. When I was visiting Seattle in 1994 I came across a green CL360 parked in the street downtown, and I hadn't seen one in so long I was dumbfounded by it and took a picture. It had less than 1000 miles on it too. I always wonder what became of it.
Yes I would, but when you consider just what @Danager4792's CL450 went through and how many layers of re-paint are (were) on it, it would be incredible to find one of those dozen or so red 360s my father painted this long after. But it would be really cool for sure.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
I want to follow up on some earlier posts regarding replacement springs for the CB450 advance mechanism. The first spring that I tried has a length of 20mm, an outer diameter of 6mm, and a wire diameter of 0.7mm with about 12 active coils. After a little riding, I opted to go up to a slightly beefier 20/6/0.8mm spring with about 11 active coils. Both springs gave the same impression while riding, which is that they are likely too soft — it feels like the advance curve may be too steep and there is only a small range of engine speeds between no advance and full advance.
Another symptom has been rapid fouling of sparkplugs, which prompted me to get out the timing gun last week. I found that the timing at idle was good, with the cylinders firing very close to their respective F/LF marks. Raising the engine speed, however, I found that the left cylinder goes beyond the full advance range. It overshoots the full advance range by an amount close to the distance between the full advance timing marks. The right cylinder was advancing even further. I suppose I might be able to correct the full advance by bending the tabs on the advance mechanism, but that probably wouldn't affect the herky jerky feel of these springs in use.
Eventually, I will have a look at other springs and I will probably try some shorter springs (15mm), which seems closer to what @Jays100 found suitable in his work on this. For now, I decided to reinstall the CB500T advance mechanism. I set the static timing and checked with the timing gun again, finding that both cylinders were firing on time at idle while staying between the timing marks at full advance. I haven't been able to ride it much since making that change, but will be interested to see if my impression of the advance curve is changed for the better.
Another symptom has been rapid fouling of sparkplugs, which prompted me to get out the timing gun last week. I found that the timing at idle was good, with the cylinders firing very close to their respective F/LF marks. Raising the engine speed, however, I found that the left cylinder goes beyond the full advance range. It overshoots the full advance range by an amount close to the distance between the full advance timing marks. The right cylinder was advancing even further. I suppose I might be able to correct the full advance by bending the tabs on the advance mechanism, but that probably wouldn't affect the herky jerky feel of these springs in use.
Eventually, I will have a look at other springs and I will probably try some shorter springs (15mm), which seems closer to what @Jays100 found suitable in his work on this. For now, I decided to reinstall the CB500T advance mechanism. I set the static timing and checked with the timing gun again, finding that both cylinders were firing on time at idle while staying between the timing marks at full advance. I haven't been able to ride it much since making that change, but will be interested to see if my impression of the advance curve is changed for the better.
Good to see you back Brody, lots going on since you were last here regularly.
You can bend the limiter tabs to bring the advance curve length into range again, but the springs are still the x-factor with respect to how it performs in the transition range. I've not had to experiment with different springs yet but then both of mine are, and will be, typically run either below or well above that transition range so I probably won't have to bother with it myself. I'm interested to see your ongoing results.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
I've ridden the bike to and from work a couple times since going back to the CB500T advance mechanism. It feels much smoother as I roll on the throttle. When I have bandwidth for more experimentation, I'll try shorter return springs with a little preload to hopefully tighten up the advance curve.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
Motivated by @RobMan's recent work on his advancers, I sorted through my collection of imported extension springs and rebuilt my spare CB450 advancer this evening. I may install it tomorrow morning for a test ride to and from work.
- The length is 15mm as opposed to 20mm.
- The outer diameter is 5mm as opposed to 6mm.
- The number of active coils is around 9 as opposed to 11.
- The new wire diameter is 0.5mm compared to 0.8mm for the previous springs.
RobMan
Veteran Member
Boldly go sir, looking forward to hearing feedback on the ride and the springs!
stl360+450
Veteran Member
I also ordered two more sets of springs on eBay that will hopefully provide a couple of stiffer options if these don't get it done. They're expected in early October.
Jays100
Veteran Member
Honda did a pretty good job with the advance curve shape so I think if you get full advance after 2200 and by 3K rpm, in that range, that portion is good. Then, reliably returns to idle rpm both cold and hot, this will work!
Nicely done!
Nicely done!
stl360+450
Veteran Member
A quick report on the latest experiment is that the new springs are likely too stiff. With no load, the engine speed had a barrier around 3k RPM, but it could be pushed through slowly and the motor could then rev out. (I let it warm up at idle first!) It would return to idle. I was still planning to ride it the four miles to work, but thought better of it after a trip around the block. Rode the XL instead.
Apparently 'flat' with not enough advance to perk it up.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
Yes, although it eventually would advance, but I suspect much later than desired.