1974 CB360: Excess oil in Points Area

stl360+450

stl360+450

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The purpose of this thread is to explore the source of excess oil in the points area on my 1974 CB360G. Thank you to 66Sprint and ancientdad for coaxing me to start the thread after seeing evidence of the oil in a photo I posted recently.



In way of background, I would like to mention that I was generously given this bike as a yard-find in the summer of 2014. The bike had likely been sitting for 30+ years, as suggested by a 1980 NE registration sticker on the left fork. The first two pictures below show where it had been sitting and what it looked like once I got it out of the dirt and pine straw. The odometer showed 5652 miles at that time and I got the bike from the original owner.

Ra1GihG.jpg

snchrmK.jpg


A couple of weeks later, I took the cylinder head to a machine shop to get it cleaned up and make sure the valves were seated properly before reassembling the motor. The pictures below show the condition of the cam and head cover on disassembly as well as the head after a visit to a local machine shop.

ha81ERW.jpg

gGOWMPy.jpg

Jim4z6D.jpg


Since that time I have put about 4000 miles on the bike without any major issues (lots of minor issues). The excess oil has been present for the duration. I did install new piston rings in 2018 and replaced the seal on the camshaft at that time. Below is a picture of the bike as it is today, after a recent powdercoating of the original, rusted rims (powdercoating by Cycle House Performance in Affton, MO).

9PaLYZ7.jpg


Today, following ancientdad's advice, I captured video of the camshaft while turning the crank. The video is a bit dark, so I apologize if it is not helpful. The second link is to a video clip of the camshaft in operation, at idle.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/Dj8pzwgy4LDGfpoAA
https://photos.app.goo.gl/TBVyc2KmqEQHAJMF9

Finally, I will include a close-up picture of the left "plug" in the points area. This plug had oil on its outer face, which suggests to me that it may be the source of the excess oil. I don't see any eccentricity in the camshaft, but the dizzying effect of the camshaft lobe and the hex head bolt don't make it easy for me to see.

ttZVfzY.jpg


Thanks for any advice. (I will not be able to do any testing/checking until next weekend, so there is no great rush to respond.)
 
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It's hard to tell in the video of you rotating it by hand, but it does look like the cam moves around a little bit. I believe the dimple in the head of the advancer retaining bolt should rotate in place as it is in the center of the bolt head and the center of the camshaft end, and the cam should spin without seeing it moving at all so I think you have some excess wear on the bearing surface in the head, unfortunately. Let's see how Steve and Jim feel about what they see. I looked at the pictures of the head and bearing surfaces while it was apart and the right side bearing surface looked to be more worn than the points side, but pictures being one dimensional makes it hard to be sure. Any unusual events since then, like clutch rod seal coming out or run low on oil at some point, or possibly fuel-diluted oil?

There you go, Steve beat me to it by one minute.
 
One way to check is back off all the valve adjusters with the crank at tdc, then grab the spark advancer bolt and try to move it around. There should be little, if any, movement there.
 
Thank you, both. When I watch the outer radius of the washer between the hex bolt and the cam my eyes do not pick up eccentric movement. However, eyesight is not my strong suit. The light source in the video is an open garage door to the right, so shadows may be creating an optical illusion on the dimple.

I haven't had any oil-related issues that I can think of at the moment. It generally doesn't lose oil (no drips) and I try to check the level regularly as a safeguard.

What do you think about the oil around that left rubber plug on the close-up?

I don't have much frame of reference for the bearing surfaces on the head, so further thoughts on the original condition of the head would also be appreciated.

And if there is eccentric movement, what course of action would be best? I should be able to source a head and cam for future replacement either online or, locally, through Archway International Motorcycle Salvage and I already have a spare head cover with followers. Is there risk of damaging anything else in the mean time?
 
stl360+450 said:
Thank you, both. When I watch the outer radius of the washer between the hex bolt and the cam my eyes do not pick up eccentric movement. However, eyesight is not my strong suit. The light source in the video is an open garage door to the right, so shadows may be creating an optical illusion on the dimple.

I haven't had any oil-related issues that I can think of at the moment. It generally doesn't lose oil (no drips) and I try to check the level regularly as a safeguard.

What do you think about the oil around that left rubber plug on the close-up?

I don't have much frame of reference for the bearing surfaces on the head, so further thoughts on the original condition of the head would also be appreciated.

And if there is eccentric movement, what course of action would be best? I should be able to source a head and cam for future replacement either online or, locally, through Archway International Motorcycle Salvage and I already have a spare head cover with followers. Is there risk of damaging anything else in the mean time?
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I don't think you'll do any damage riding it like it is, you'll just never get it to run right and eventually the oil seepage will become a problem for the points if it gets worse. I'm guessing the oil elsewhere inside that area is just from the advancer slinging it around once it seeps out of the seal.
 
Thanks, all.

For now, I think I will try to reseal that left plug to see if it makes any difference in the amount of oil present and keep an eye on the whole area over the next few rides. The next time I have a reason to take the top end apart I will address any existing issues with the cam and head.
 
The manufacturing method of the bolts does not guarantee perfect concentricity of the bolt thread to the head so I’m not sure I would base my judgement solely on the apparent dimple eccentricity. Still, this engine does have some cam bearing oiling issues.

I think an easy way to check, should the plug sealing not work, is to pull the points plate and advancer then lift up on the cam quill. There shouldn’t be more than .002” movement (and that’s a lot). If there is noticeable movement of the cam quill, time to pull the top cover and check further.
 
Jays100 said:
The manufacturing method of the bolts does not guarantee perfect concentricity of the bolt thread to the head so I’m not sure I would base my judgement solely on the apparent dimple eccentricity. Still, this engine does have some cam bearing oiling issues.

I think an easy way to check, should the plug sealing not work, is to pull the points plate and advancer then lift up on the cam quill. There shouldn’t be more than .002” movement (and that’s a lot). If there is noticeable movement of the cam quill, time to pull the top cover and check further.
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While I agree about manufacturing tolerances Jay, those bolts were dimpled for the use of the mechanical tachometer attachment for the Honda service tester back in the day and I'd guess they were pretty well centered for that reason. Still, the best way to be sure is to physically check the cam movement with all the parts removed as you mentioned.
 
stl360+450 said:
Thanks, all.

For now, I think I will try to reseal that left plug to see if it makes any difference in the amount of oil present and keep an eye on the whole area over the next few rides. The next time I have a reason to take the top end apart I will address any existing issues with the cam and head.
Click to expand...

Once you solve the oil mystery, we would appreciate your comments on what (if any) jetting (or other) changes were necessary to get the 360 to run so well on DOHC 450 carbs......
 
Even though I'm new to the forum, I've been reading your posts for years, Steve, and I knew you (and/or Tom) would notice those carbs. I'm still making some small adjustments, but I would definitely like to start a thread on that at some point and get feedback from people like you on the setup.

Thank you for all of your contributions to the community!
 
stl360+450 said:
Even though I'm new to the forum, I've been reading your posts for years, Steve, and I knew you (and/or Tom) would notice those carbs. I'm still making some small adjustments, but I would definitely like to start a thread on that at some point and get feedback from people like you on the setup.

Thank you for all of your contributions to the community!
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You're welcome, of course. I saw them myself during the video and though they kind of registered, like Steve I was focused on the reason for the video... Steve and I talk about once a week or so and he called me earlier to ask if I'd noticed. You can't get much past him, as I'm sure you already realize. My thought was those carbs are a fair size larger than stock for the 360 so that part certainly makes me curious.
 
stl360+450 said:
As the radio voice of the St. Louis Cardinals (Mike Shannon) would say, "It's like trying to sneak the sun past a rooster."
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Yep, I've heard that said before and very likely in a baseball broadcast. Glad there's someone else here who likes the sport. Ever since the evil first owner of the Tampa Bay Rays sold the team (Vince Naimoli of the "do you know who I am?" fame during a DUI stop, which for him was a bad idea since most of the local population hated how he cheaped out on the team during his ownership) I've really enjoyed following them, lots of success on a small budget by doing it right.
 
ancientdad said:
Ever since the evil first owner of the Tampa Bay Rays sold the team (Vince Naimoli of the "do you know who I am?" fame during a DUI stop, which for him was a bad idea since most of the local population hated how he cheaped out on the team during his ownership) I've really enjoyed following them, lots of success on a small budget by doing it right.
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The Rays always seem to do well in trades, which I take as a sign of good scouting and management. You can't argue with their results.
 
I decided to try a new perspective on the camshaft today, well, actually two (er, three) new perspectives: each a slow motion video at idle.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/hpto3iDD8GpoAhJk6
https://photos.app.goo.gl/HUa5pZtHA6VsDE5b8 https://photos.app.goo.gl/vLiXKS3UGwt7cqmq6

It looks to me like the camshaft is moving side to side on each rotation and I expect more than it should be, but I don't have much frame of reference. I've worked on about half a dozen bikes over the last 10 years, but never two of any single model.

I rode the bike to work and back today hitting about 60mph max and it feels fine, so I'm still inclined to put off replacement for the time being, but I guess I should begin looking for a head and cam.
 
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stl360+450 said:
I decided to try a new perspective on the camshaft today, well, actually two new perspectives: each a slow motion video at idle.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/hpto3iDD8GpoAhJk6
https://photos.app.goo.gl/HUa5pZtHA6VsDE5b8



It looks to me like the camshaft is moving side to side on each rotation and I expect more than it should be, but I don't have much frame of reference. I've worked on about half a dozen bikes over the last 10 years, but never two of any single model.

I rode the bike to work and back today hitting about 60mph max and it feels fine, so I'm still inclined to put off replacement for the time being, but I guess I should begin looking for a head and cam.
Click to expand...

To me, it still seems to deflect a bit laterally and the slo-mo really helps with the visual, but maybe if you did the same thing again only directly across from it as you did previously it might shed more light on it. I'd agree that you should start the search now despite not needing to be urgent about the repair.
 
ancientdad said:
To me, it still seems to deflect a bit laterally and the slo-mo really helps with the visual, but maybe if you did the same thing again only directly across from it as you did previously it might shed more light on it.
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Done - I edited the previous post to include that angle as well.
 
Well, maybe it isn't as much as it originally seemed. At some point I'd still take the points plate and advancer off and carefully try to move the end of the cam while watching the seal for deflection. Since the end that holds the advancer (the quill, apparently) is pressed into the cam I'd use a judicious approach. In the meantime, ride it!
 
ancientdad said:
Glad there's someone else here who likes the sport.
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I’m up for a Rays vs Cardinals World Series… let’s do it!
stl360+450 said:
As the radio voice of the St. Louis Cardinals (Mike Shannon) would say…
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Mike Shannon and Jack Buck, and a cold frosty one at Busch Stadium…good times! GO CARDS!

Tom - 1982 CM450E / Midwest USA
 
tomeben said:
Mike Shannon and Jack Buck, and a cold frosty one at Busch Stadium…good times! GO CARDS!
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Amen to that. My grandfather and father followed the Cardinals via KMOX from Wisconsin and that's what steered me to St. Louis when I was in graduate school in the late 90s.
 
stl360+450 said:
Amen to that. My grandfather and father followed the Cardinals via KMOX from Wisconsin and that's what steered me to St. Louis when I was in graduate school in the late 90s.
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My father wasn't into sports much, baseball was the only one he even barely paid attention to though he was a big NASCAR fan before it became big. In the '60s we'd listen to NASCAR on the AM radio because it was virtually never on TV, and I discovered baseball on AM radio around the same time. No teams in Florida then so the closest team was the Atlanta Braves after they moved there from Milwaukee in '66 and they had a radio affiliate in the Tampa area. Started following Henry Aaron's career when he was chasing his 500th home run, listening to Milo Hamilton and Ernie Johnson call their games all the way through him passing Babe Ruth. Too bad they never won a World Series during Aaron's career.
 
ancientdad said:
Started following Henry Aaron's career when he was chasing his 500th home run, listening to Milo Hamilton and Ernie Johnson call their games all the way through him passing Babe Ruth. Too bad they never won a World Series during Aaron's career.
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Modern radio announcers don't seem to be measuring up to the greats of the past. This is Mike Shannon's last year on the air and he's only doing a fraction of the games.
 
stl360+450 said:
Modern radio announcers don't seem to be measuring up to the greats of the past. This is Mike Shannon's last year on the air and he's only doing a fraction of the games.
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I think it has something to do with radio being reduced to the smallest audience in these times in the face of so many TV and streaming options. Few last as long as guys like Harry Caray and Vin Scully. I mean, who listens to football or hockey broadcasts? (though if they ever listened to Dave Mishkin call a TB Lightning game they'd want to) Do they even do radio broadcasts of basketball? (not that I care at all) It's just the step-child of broadcast media these days so the available talent is probably less. I enjoy listening to the Rays radio guys (Dave Wills and Andy Freid), they've been with the team for well over 15 years and they're only the second pair to ever do the games. They paint a great mental picture as any good radio person should do but you're right, it takes a special kind of talent to do that well.
 
ancientdad said:
I think it has something to do with radio being reduced to the smallest audience in these times in the face of so many TV and streaming options. Few last as long as guys like Harry Caray and Vin Scully. I mean, who listens to football or hockey broadcasts? (though if they ever listened to Dave Mishkin call a TB Lightning game they'd want to) Do they even do radio broadcasts of basketball? (not that I care at all) It's just the step-child of broadcast media these days so the available talent is probably less. I enjoy listening to the Rays radio guys (Dave Wills and Andy Freid), they've been with the team for well over 15 years and they're only the second pair to ever do the games. They paint a great mental picture as any good radio person should do but you're right, it takes a special kind of talent to do that well.
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It's a shame because it's nice to listen to games while working in the garage or on long drives in the summer. I actually choose radio over TV on a daily basis and listen to 75%+ of the Cardinal games. I really value the broadcasters who paint a picture as you describe...
 
A baseball game on the radio in the garage on a warm night ... Perfect!

Good thing we don't go off topic like people do on other sites.
 
stl360+450 said:
It's a shame because it's nice to listen to games while working in the garage or on long drives in the summer. I actually choose radio over TV on a daily basis and listen to 75%+ of the Cardinal games. I really value the broadcasters who paint a picture as you describe...
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Though I like to actually watch baseball, I completely agree with listening in the garage... but that's where my [problems come from due to my rural location. AM radio is hard to pick up without a really good antenna these days and when the 50,000 watt flagship station is roughly 50 to 60 miles away, and the closer stations are really low wattage, I can't tune them in with any AM radio I have. To make it even worse, MLB has now taken over all internet streaming broadcasts and if you're within the distance of the team that I am, they black out the flagship station's stream so I can't listen that way either. It's all about the money now, just like Lightning hockey - all of Fox Sports regional channels were sold after Disney bought a big chunk of Fox properties a couple years ago and the regional station for the Lightning and the Rays is now owned by Sinclair and broadcasts under the banner of Bally (yes, the gambling conglomerate) so all of the broadcast packages that used to include all the regional channels for no extra charge (YouTube TV, Hulu, etc) have dropped them and only one TV broadcast service carries them anymore, AT&T TV. AND, they make you buy the middle tier package to be able to watch the regionals for your area, so we have to add AT&T TV during hockey season (like having 2 almost duplicate TV streaming packages, despite AT&T TV's menus and interface being horrible compared to YTTV which we really like) at a monthly cost of $93 just to watch one thing... corporate greed.
 
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