1970 CL450 K3 Rebuild

I purchased Jay's rotary style pump to increase the speed of oil flow to the top end and ultimately improve longevity. Even with the new pump I plan to follow the recommended warm up procedure. My intention with this rebuild it to get the machine into the best shape possible while being "reasonable" with spending. Starting to think that's a pipe dream. With the diminishing number of parts in circulation, I'm glad to hear there are options for repairs. I like the idea of sourcing NOS rather than used but @EzPete was not lying about cost. I'm seeing close to $200 per NOS follower. It seems like having spares is never a bad thing in this hobby but wow.

What is a reputable shop for repairs? I've read that Megacycle does great work on cams but will they do followers too?

Are the marks on the left exhaust lobe a cause for concern? I can't feel anything when I run my finger nail or even a straight edge over it. It looks to be some kind of staining.

The "dished' spot on the follower more like a thin flat spot and is very hard to capture in a photo when the light doesn't catch it just right. Here are some other angels with different backgrounds. I've pointed to the spot in question.

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bald&pale said:
I purchased Jay's rotary style pump to increase the speed of oil flow to the top end and ultimately improve longevity. Even with the new pump I plan to follow the recommended warm up procedure. My intention with this rebuild it to get the machine into the best shape possible while being "reasonable" with spending. Starting to think that's a pipe dream. With the diminishing number of parts in circulation, I'm glad to hear there are options for repairs. I like the idea of sourcing NOS rather than used but @EzPete was not lying about cost. I'm seeing close to $200 per NOS follower. It seems like having spares is never a bad thing in this hobby but wow.
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I found these as well

www.nospartsnow.com

NOS Honda CB450 CB500 T CL450 Valve Cam Follower Rocker Arm 14431-292-010

NOS Parts NOW is Buying & Selling New Old Stock Vintage Japanese Motorcycle Parts Honda Yamaha Kawasaki Suzuki
www.nospartsnow.com www.nospartsnow.com

www.cmsnl.com

14431292010: FOLLOWER,CAM Honda - buy the 14431-292-010 at CMSNL

✓ Get the FOLLOWER,CAM ✓ Manufacturer Part Number: 14431-292-010 ✓ Quality part
www.cmsnl.com www.cmsnl.com
bald&pale said:
What is a reputable shop for repairs? I've read that Megacycle does great work on cams but will they do followers too?
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Yes, last price I saw was around $100 each. There's also Rocker Arms Unlimited - https://www.rockerarms.com/ - but as yet I'm not sure anyone has used them for a 450 follower repair, though Jim got them set up to do them a while back.
bald&pale said:
Are the marks on the left exhaust lobe a cause for concern? I can't feel anything when I run my finger nail or even a straight edge over it. It looks to be some kind of staining.
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Perhaps you missed my previous comments?

1970 CL450 K3 Rebuild

I purchased a DOHC CL450 a few weeks ago with some serious compression issues. It was a barn find from the previous owner who was able to get it up an running after having sat leaned over on the side stand for 35+ years. I did a compression test and found it to be 80 psi in the left cylinder and...
www.vintagehondatwins.com www.vintagehondatwins.com
bald&pale said:
The "dished' spot on the follower more like a thin flat spot and is very hard to capture in a photo when the light doesn't catch it just right. Here are some other angels with different backgrounds. I've pointed to the spot in question.
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I see it, and it is not overly significant but it will also never go away. And it will affect your proper valve adjustment. You could run it but you'll never get the clearance on that one adjusted correctly to .002" (spec is .0012", at the Honda shops we set them at .0015" because feeler stock was available in that size then, but now we settle at .002" for simplicity while not being excessively larger than stock spec)
 
Thanks @ancientdad. I found the same and put the CMSNL ones on my watch list. If I were to send them out, would you recommend I send all four? I'm assuming they should all have similar pad height?

ancientdad said:
Perhaps you missed my previous comments?
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I sure did. Thanks for your patience. I'll take some fine grit and clean it up.

ancientdad said:
I see it, and it is not overly significant but it will also never go away. And it will affect your proper valve adjustment. You could run it but you'll never get the clearance on that one adjusted correctly to .002" (spec is .0012", at the Honda shops we set them at .0015" because feeler stock was available in that size then, but now we settle at .002" for simplicity while not being excessively larger than stock spec)
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Good to know. It sounds like the right choice is to get a new one or have it fixed.
 
bald&pale said:
Thanks @ancientdad. I found the same and put the CMSNL ones on my watch list. If I were to send them out, would you recommend I send all four? I'm assuming they should all have similar pad height?
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It's less about the pad height and more about the proper, smooth curved surface. If there is any dished area it complicates valve adjustment, but as long as the pad area is smooth then they're usable. Again, you can lightly/gently dress them with a whetstone but the more material you remove, the more chance of reducing the hardened layer and it will wear faster afterward.
 
Rockers Unlimited can repair your followers. They have an NOS one to use for QC purposes to be sure they're right.

Rocker Arms Unlimited

Rocker Arms Unlimited
www.rockerarms.com
Oregon Camshaft can regrind your cams. They have masters made from NOS cams so you know they'll be right

Cam Grinding, Camshafts, Racing & Performance Equipment

cam and camshaft grinding by Oregon Cam Grinding, Inc.
www.oregoncamshaft.com
 
I found what seems to be a good deal for a full set of used followers and shafts. I think I saw somewhere that they're all interchangeable for the 450s. Can anyone confirm? It's impossible to tell by the photos but my hope is that at least one is in usable condition.

 
Hell. If you can get Rocker Arms Unlimited to finish mine from last year, send them yours and keep mine. I’ve given those up for dead anyway. They were having issues with the finish surface bonding last I heard, but that was back late last year.
 
bald&pale said:
I found what seems to be a good deal for a full set of used followers and shafts. I think I saw somewhere that they're all interchangeable for the 450s. Can anyone confirm? It's impossible to tell by the photos but my hope is that at least one is in usable condition.

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3/4 of those look decent. Totally worth the gamble, IMO.
 
EzPete said:
Hell. If you can get Rocker Arms Unlimited to finish mine from last year, send them yours and keep mine. I’ve given those up for dead anyway. They were having issues with the finish surface bonding last I heard, but that was back late last year.
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I didn't know you hadn't gotten that resolved yet. The OP should make a phone call before sending them then, I haven't had the need to use them yet so I can only go on the discussions Jim had with them.
 
I'm having some trouble with removing the gear selector shaft. I've removed the set spring and stopper washer but the shaft has sustained some damage from a loose or broken chain. I can wiggle it out a few inches but It will not freely slide through the case and I assume it is because of the deformation. Before I start bashing on the end of it, does anyone have a suggestion?
IMG_1059.JPEG
 
You'll need to file the burrs down by hand until it slides in and out freely, and it might even be slightly bent so once it moves freely you should check the end of the shaft for any deflection when rotating it as much as you can before forcing it out of the crankcase.
 
It’s mostly gouging but I’ll file it down to be sure there aren’t any burrs. Great call about it being bent. It’s not much but I do notice it while rotating. Should I try heat and a section of pipe to slip over it for straightening?
 
I think I'm at the point at which I can begin removing the bolts to separate the case. I noticed some damage to the case behind clutch basket. Does anyone have an idea of what could have caused this?

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It's an odd location for those marks, almost looks like it happened when the lower case was previously removed as there aren't many things that could have caused it under anywhere near normal circumstances. I'd go ahead with the teardown, it doesn't look to have caused any damage that will prevent normal assembly or use. Be sure to check (and likely replace) the large shift detent roller, the shaft is likely well worn and it will cause upshifting issues.
 
ancientdad said:
Be sure to check (and likely replace) the large shift detent roller, the shaft is likely well worn and it will cause upshifting issues.
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Are you referring to #15 which was stuck and discussed above?

Not sure why I'm struggling so much to get the case apart. I double checked the fiche to make sure every bolt is accounted for but it's not budging. Am I missing something or the sealant just doing it's job very well?

honda-cl450-e14-shift-drum-kick-starter_big3IMG01171045_59cd.gif
 
bald&pale said:
Are you referring to #15 which was stuck and discussed above?
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No. It's #11, the large shift detent roller visible in your first picture of three above, still in contact with the shift drum. They are notorious for wear on the shaft that the hardened roller rides on, and if at all sloppy then it needs to be replaced.
bald&pale said:
Not sure why I'm struggling so much to get the case apart. I double checked the fiche to make sure every bolt is accounted for but it's not budging. Am I missing something or the sealant just doing it's job very well?
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Tap briskly on the large front motor mount, if you're 100% sure you have all bolts from both the bottom and the top of the crankcase removed then it's just the previous sealer and the good fit.
 
jensen said:
Not good, you have to apply some liquid gasket on top of the standard gasket in this area.
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Unfortunately, there is damage like this all over. Thankfully I found this forum before I got too far into the tear down. The tools and techniques I had started using (embarrassingly learned from those guys in Houston videos) would have made this even worse. The PO somehow sealed up the leak points well. I test rode it for 20 minutes, which is longer than I normally would have, to see if any drips would pop up. I only found one small spot at the bottom of the left cover.

As for the liquid gasket, it seems like Hondabond is the popular choice here. I'll be sure to get a tube for reassembly and stock up on cardboard for the inevitable drip.
 
I took my carbs in to get cleaned by a local vapor blast service. They highly recommended I take the butterfly valves apart to be sure that all of the abrasive is more easily cleaned off before reassembly. I figured I should ask if this is the right move before I let loose on my vintage Keihin carbs. Any concerns with taking apart these components?
 
bald&pale said:
I took my carbs in to get cleaned by a local vapor blast service. They highly recommended I take the butterfly valves apart to be sure that all of the abrasive is more easily cleaned off before reassembly. I figured I should ask if this is the right move before I let loose on my vintage Keihin carbs. Any concerns with taking apart these components?
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Yeah man, tons of pictures and mark the butterflies themselves with a sharpie for orientation - go super easy on those screws holding the plates in. They’re the softest metal on earth.

Make sure to clean the ever-loving heck out of them afterwards to get all the passageways clear.
 
This was my first time having anything vapor blasted and it was absolutely worth it. Only $20 and my 14H carbs look brand new. I'm considering having everything done if the price is right.

I've been soaking all of the screws and jets in cleaner for a few days before I began to took a closer look. Unfortunately everything seems to be mismatched between each carb. The main jets, pilot jets, slow jets, idle set screws, and other various screws all look slightly different. As a newbie it's hard for me to tell which is original and aftermarket but I can easily notice the discrepancies. I'm not sure where to go from here. Do I take on the tough task of finding original parts or buy a junky replacement kit that everyone struggles with?

Left Carb
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Right Carb
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You can kinda tell by weight and finish when it's the chineseum aftermarket stuff, which is usually an over the top gold color. Legit Keihin jets will have the little star logo as well. Did you leave the needle seat in the carb body? If you did, make sure that's cleaned out well.
 
I did leave the needle seats in. I’ll be sure to flush those out unless you recommend removing them for cleaning? The other thing I didn’t notice were the felt washers/bushings which hold the butterfly assembly shaft. Is it recommend to replace those?

I’ve started looking for brass replacements and the star logo info has been very helpful. Legit main and slow jets have been found. Should the emulsifier tubes have the emblem as well? I have two different screws/seats which hold the needle floats. Not sure if I need new ones as they look close enough. One legit and one aftermarket pilot jet. I’m surprised the PO was able to get the carbs synced enough to run.
 
It's kind of tough to inspect the needle seats without removing them, but it's doable. I don't think the tubes have the logo on them? Maybe on the upper part above the threading? The second one down on yours has all the look of an OEM (typical widening of the screwdriver slot). Aftermarket jets aren't all bad, they're just really inconsistent, so it's totally possible to get one working - the needles and fuel/air mix screws are really where the aftermarket stuff starts becoming very problematic, although that little needle set screw isn't really a concern at all - if it's not stripped, they're interchangeable.

Sirius Consolidated is a good source for Keihin jets. Their search interface is not ideal, but they should have the ones you're looking for.
 
Thanks guys! I got a set of the Keyster rebuild kits from Sirious since it has the springs and gaskets included. That was a much easier fix than I anticipated.

Any tips on the felt washers? When I took the throttle rod out I missed each one that live inside the carb bodies. Those are now long gone and don’t seem to be sold. Do everyone make their own?
 
bald&pale said:
Thanks guys! I got a set of the Keyster rebuild kits from Sirious since it has the springs and gaskets included. That was a much easier fix than I anticipated.

Any tips on the felt washers? When I took the throttle rod out I missed each one that live inside the carb bodies. Those are now long gone and don’t seem to be sold. Do everyone make their own?
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I made felt seals for my carbs using felt chair slides, scissors and a hole punch. Post number 615 my thread. Here is a copy of the picture. Old felt at the top of the pic.

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@RobMan I'm impressed with your results. I spent 30 minutes this weekend trying to fashion one and couldn't get anything remotely symmetrical like yours. The felt sheet I have might be too thick. Anyways, my patience ran out and I ended up buying the set @Cycleranger recommended. Thanks to both!

I started to dig into the suspension because the front was awful. I disassembled the forks easily while following the FSM to the very end where it states to "Pull out and disassemble the front fork bottom pipe and the front fork pipe assembly." I'm guessing that means pull (very hard) on the uppers until the seals pop out? Mine don't budge with light pulling. As promised, asking for input before I start using excessive force. See photos below for progress and discolored old fork oil.

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I cleaned and inspected the transmission last night and found and issue. One of the main bearings on the countershaft, nearest to the counter sprocket, was binding when rotated in alternating directions. After several attempts at cleaning and lubricating, it has a slight bump that does seem to be at a consistent point in its rotation. Looking closer at the bearing from the side, the inner ring is not exactly centered around the shaft. In fact the widest point travels around the shaft when rotating. My guess is one or more of the roller bearings has a significant amount of corrosion. Is this bearing pressed on? How can I remove it from the shaft?

IMG_1513.jpg


View of the bottom of the bearing (widest gap between inner ring and counter shaft)
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View of the top of the bearing (smallest gap between inner ring and counter shaft)
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RobMan said:
The link seems to work in spite of the "Pardon Our Interruption" message.
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It seems to be consistent with many eBay links these days so I think it's intentional. But you might be right, it might be too good to be true. Even a good used shaft would do him fine, I may even have an extra one myself.
 
I’m tempted to give the too good to be true option a shot. I realize they don’t accept returns but I have had a similar instance where a seller intentionally sent the wrong item and went silent. eBay was nice enough to settle the claim and provide me with a refund.
 
bald&pale said:
I’m tempted to give the too good to be true option a shot. I realize they don’t accept returns but I have had a similar instance where a seller intentionally sent the wrong item and went silent. eBay was nice enough to settle the claim and provide me with a refund.
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I'd go for it, seller feedback is good
 
Done and fingers crossed. It’s a shame you have to replace the entire shaft when it’s only one component. I could not find a baring for sale as Jensen explained.

There is a DOHC 450 engine up for sale in my area on FB marketplace. The add has been up for months but the guy hasn’t read my last two messages asking for his address. It would be really nice to have that as a donor.

Anyone think the $350 asking price is fair for its condition?

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Link works. Why put paper towels in the exhaust ports and leave the carbs on the manifolds if you're going to leave the spark plugs out of it? And the breather tube spigot too, though it's less invasive when open unless it's sitting out in the rain. I wouldn't give that much for it without seeing it turn over, pulling the valve covers to look at the cams and checking compression.
 
I would be a bit concerned that they had to cut the chain to get it out. If the chain was that rusty it had been out in the weather along time.
 
All good points and thank you for the input. The lack proper storage is a big concern. If I ever get the chance to see it in person I’ll be sure to do the best inspection I can.

With all of the mating surface damage on mine I could use a crank case and side covers that are in better condition.
 
Done and fingers crossed. It’s a shame you have to replace the entire shaft when it’s only one component. I could not find a baring for sale as Jensen explained.
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Make sure the p/n is correct with the other used parts (washers and gears), and, when arrived at your doorstep, compare both shafts. There are differences between the P/N numbers of these shafts, which acquire different parts that interfere with the shaft.
 
jensen said:
Make sure the p/n is correct with the other used parts (washers and gears), and, when arrived at your doorstep, compare both shafts. There are differences between the P/N numbers of these shafts, which acquire different parts that interfere with the shaft.
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From my research the p/n is correct (who knows is the seller got it right) and I will be cautious to compare the two parts upon inspection. To your point the 350 countershaft does look very similar and the earlier models have the same port for the chain oilers. My plan is to measure the dimensions, location of oil ports and use the eyeball test. Is there anything else you would recommend to make sure the part is correct?
 
After reading through the entirety of Robman's thread, I realized I did a poor job of documenting the disassembly process. I'm going to get better at that during the rebuild. I've always been more of a lurker rather than a poster on any forum. Even in these anonymous formats I seem to keep my quiet/reserved demeanor.

Maybe it's my desire for a fresh crankcase, but I'm beginning to get a bit worried about the damage shown below. Could this cause any structural problems? Although it looks bad, to me it seems borderline. I'd like to consult the experts for their opinion.

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Yikes, at minimum your going to have serious issues attaching the drive chain cover, Looks like the drive chain broke and smacked it there or something. Personally I would be looking for a replacement bottom case. I see why you were looking at the donor engine. Did you ever get his address? Might be worth a look and when your there make a counter offer.
 
I agree, you'd have to grind that surface flat where the screws for the front sprocket cover go and add some kind of spacer or the cover won't tighten up properly which will affect cover alignment and as a result, potentially affect the clutch rod alignment. Pick up a used lower case, any 5 speed lower case will fit yours.
 
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If you do decide to buy a lower case be sure to look closely for cracks at the area around where the kick start shaft comes out. This appears to be a common issue and is the problem with the extra case I have.

On you case there is a lot of material missing there and I don't know if there are enough threads to hold the drive chain cover in place. Here is an image of a case from ebay in that area for comparison.

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There are enough threads for the drive chain cover screws to fit semi-snug. The clutch rod also worked fine when it was running, but there is no telling how long it would have held. I would hate to tear it down again because I didn’t fix it when I had the chance. Maybe I can find a complete crankcase with non-mangled side cover mating surfaces!
 
bald&pale said:
Maybe I can find a complete crankcase with non-mangled side cover mating surfaces!
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If it comes to it, I will have an extra lower case after gathering the bottom end parts for my project. I have a couple spare engines but will only be using one.
 
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