I removed the left side cam box cover. The gasket looks like it is oriented the correct way. When I pulled the cover off I found the top end is full of oil and it began to spill out when I removed the cover. Photo below.
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CL350 Vintage racer project
- Thread starter Emlupi
- Start date
Based solely upon the evidence, let me proffer a possible scenario. Since I could hear clattering and see smoke from the right side and oil pouring from the left side, is it possible that the right side supply is blocked? Maybe all the oil is being pushed up the left side and leaking past the gasket??
Is there any way to inspect oil flow on the right side??
Is there any way to inspect oil flow on the right side??
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I removed the cam box cover from the right side and it was loaded with oil just like the left side. So, I guess my theory doesn’t hold up. I can’t understand why I was hearing the ticking sound if everything is getting oil and I don’t know why the oil is pouring out the left hand side.
Don’t know what to do from here. Try replacing the left side gasket maybe?? Still doesn’t explain all that ticking and smoking.
Don’t know what to do from here. Try replacing the left side gasket maybe?? Still doesn’t explain all that ticking and smoking.
You took both cam bearing covers off at the same time? I hope you kept the cam elevated so the cam to crank timing didn't slip a tooth.
No sir, only one at a time. Maybe I should start a separate thread to see if I can get this sorted out.
I don't see why, this is all part of the journey.
Only to possibly get more eyes on the subject and maybe find a solution. I’m referencing the oil leak and top end problems.
I have an extra gasket set here. Maybe try another cam box gasket on that left side? Can’t be any worse than what I have now.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
I would reassemble the cam bearings with the same gaskets for now and turn the motor over slowly by hand. Check cam timing, valve clearances, and confirm that the tensioner is functioning correctly. See if you hear anything unusual turning it by hand. I had installed the tensioner incorrectly on mine and it made some scary ticking noises at a couple of points where the cam naturally rolls forward.
Did the cam bearings tighten up well on both sides? All the threads for the cross head screws are in good shape there? In Post #503, the picture gives the impression that the screw in the top right might not have been tight, or at least that's where the oil appears to have been concentrated on the gasket.
Is it possible that the smoke you saw was caused by the headers heating up and burning off some old residue?
Did the cam bearings tighten up well on both sides? All the threads for the cross head screws are in good shape there? In Post #503, the picture gives the impression that the screw in the top right might not have been tight, or at least that's where the oil appears to have been concentrated on the gasket.
Is it possible that the smoke you saw was caused by the headers heating up and burning off some old residue?
ballbearian
Veteran Member
Your gasket was on backwards. I did it too. It is a universal gasket for right or left side cam housing, makes it confusing.
Fortunately I took a pic of my virgin factory gasket on mine. It is the black one in the photo, the green one was my mistake. The small hole must be on the left of the cam center when gasket is used on the left side of the motor. The small holes purpose is seen when gasket is used on the right side of the motor.
See pic in post #655 in my build link.
Mousetown, my own 73 CL350
It's OK, you can admit it here. You might like working on the bike almost more than riding it. I have only one statement. I don't want a pickle.....
www.vintagehondatwins.com
ballbearian
Veteran Member
I know I finally got the gasket right because my cam box edge leak got worse! 
I just fixed a 'leak' along it's intended path so had more flow/pressure.
There is no inspection bolt on the right but the precise metering holes, in the upper case, that send oil up the rear studs should balance flow because Honda engineers had special oil flow-fu.
You could probably fix this issue without pulling out the motor, but it would be interesting to check the cam chain tension and position of the cam chain sprocket on the cam itself. Especially if you used an adjustable cam chain sprocket on your cam, I can't remember. I bet Stan Lippert, and PJ, knows how to index cams on race motors. I'm just a stocker slacker, trying to make it right.
I just fixed a 'leak' along it's intended path so had more flow/pressure.
There is no inspection bolt on the right but the precise metering holes, in the upper case, that send oil up the rear studs should balance flow because Honda engineers had special oil flow-fu.
You could probably fix this issue without pulling out the motor, but it would be interesting to check the cam chain tension and position of the cam chain sprocket on the cam itself. Especially if you used an adjustable cam chain sprocket on your cam, I can't remember. I bet Stan Lippert, and PJ, knows how to index cams on race motors. I'm just a stocker slacker, trying to make it right.
Thanks for the info, I’ll definitely check all that out.
I installed the gasket using Honda’s factory illuminations as a guide. If you look at the photo below, the right side cam box cover gasket in the illustration clearly shows the hole oriented to the right (as viewed from the right side).
The left side cam box cover gasket is partially obstructed but shows NO hole on the left leading me to conclude that the hole is oriented on the right side. Very misleading if it should be the opposite way around. That’s a bad job by Honda.
I will turn the gasket in the opposite direction and check all the other points noted here. I am using the factory cam chain gear and definitely timed it correctly but I will look again for good measure. Same for cam chain tension which is also using all new parts.
I installed the gasket using Honda’s factory illuminations as a guide. If you look at the photo below, the right side cam box cover gasket in the illustration clearly shows the hole oriented to the right (as viewed from the right side).
The left side cam box cover gasket is partially obstructed but shows NO hole on the left leading me to conclude that the hole is oriented on the right side. Very misleading if it should be the opposite way around. That’s a bad job by Honda.
I will turn the gasket in the opposite direction and check all the other points noted here. I am using the factory cam chain gear and definitely timed it correctly but I will look again for good measure. Same for cam chain tension which is also using all new parts.
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I installed a slipper type cam chain tensioner, there are no rollers involved.
Yes, I used a torque wrench on all the engine fasteners and everything was tightened the same. I replaced the factory JIS screws with hex heads.
This is definitely a possibility.
Here’s further evidence that ballbearin is correct about gasket orientation. In the photo you can clearly see the right side of the cam box cover has a 3-sided shape (in red) that matches with the 3-sided shape of the gasket (in yellow). So, obviously, this gasket is on backwards. I will have to turn it around to the correct orientation, readjust the valve clearances, recheck cam chain tension and try the startup again.
It's an easy mistake to make, and your point about the parts fiche being misleading is a good one as well. Unfortunately this is why we can't always trust the parts fiches, we have to remember that to some degree there was likely a similar level of mistakes in them as there were typos in the FSMs from 50 years ago.
So go get that towel from the center of the ring and get back in the fight.
Unfortunately, unless you know that there is an error in the illustration you have to find out the hard way.
I am still leery about the ticking noise I heard but I suppose I will have to solve one problem at a time.
I suppose it's a sticky in the making, but many here have gone through that same situation and no, unfortunately we haven't really addressed it as we should have as a forum for these bikes. I never thought to say anything to you for a couple of reasons, partly because I don't do 350s in general and haven't rebuilt a 350 engine in decades, and partly because you've been very meticulous along the way and I (unfortunately) assumed you'd realized it already.
I'm sure you won't mind if I use some of your pictures as an example for the sticky.
Obviously hard to say why at this point, but it's safe to say there shouldn't be any damage from lack of oil.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
If you do pull the motor to remove the cam cover, check the end float play if changing cam bearing gaskets, it may change if gasket is different.
Also check wrist pin circlips are still in place, could cause ticking?
Also check wrist pin circlips are still in place, could cause ticking?
Let’s hope it doesn’t come to all that.
I doubt it, I might be wrong but it seems like way too quick for a clip and wristpin to come out of a freshly assembled engine.
Think was a case of inexperience on my part, no doubt. The forum has helped a great deal but can’t catch every detail.
But it's also an easy mistake to make when you've done a few, thinking about the steps ahead can distract enough that you don't pay close attention to the gasket itself. It happens to us all at times, and the forum benefited from it thanks to your pictures.
I was doing some research on this and I found another thread about a 350 making ticking noises. It was mentioned that an exhaust leak can make that kind of sound. Perhaps this may be what’s going on with my bike? It would explain the smoking I witnessed coming from the right side exhaust port, the side from which I heard the noise The oil from the reversed cam box gasket may be totally unrelated and make it seem like something more?? I was having an issue with the exhaust spigot as mentioned in an earlier post (#493). Perhaps the exhaust washer didn’t seal properly? Worth some investigating.
It's natural to have a panic attack when things like this happen. Been there, done that. More than once. I've since learned, I hope, to take a deep breath and walk away for a bit. Come back with a clear mind and appraise the issue(s).
stl360+450
Veteran Member
I wasn't aware of that slipper-type tensioner, so I went back to look at the pictures from your installation. Does this design still utilize a plunger?
Yes, it still uses the factory spring and plunger arrangement. Essentially, it replaces the two rollers with a teflon slider.
Agreed, when I started it up and it seemed like all hell was breaking loose with ticking, smoking, and oil spewing my heart sank. I kept trying to figure out where I had gone wrong. I’m going to go back and correct the issues and try to go again. Thanks.
Here’s some more Honda literature madness! I took some time today to get back in and readjust the valve clearances. Since I had reversed the left side cam box gasket I started on that side. I took the FSM procedure with me because I don’t have the specs memorized and even if I did, I don’t trust my memory anymore.
I did the left side intake and exhaust and buttoned them up. Then went over to the right side. Here’s where I almost went off track again. The photos in my FSM copy are not exactly professional grade to begin with and, if not properly scrutinized, can be very misleading. Unbeknownst to me, the photo of the right side rocker arm pin adjustments is actually upside down. Glancing at it and assuming that you are viewing it from the right side and properly oriented, you will turn the adjustment pins the opposite way. It was only the fact that I had paid attention and learned well that the reference tick marks are supposed to be outboard which clued me in to the shenanigans. When I stopped and took a closer look is when it dawned on me that the photo is presented upside down.
Looking at the image as a whole I can see their twisted reasoning. This presentation keeps the intake and exhaust pins on the same side of the picture. But, I gotta say, this layout can be very confusing and misleading to someone who is unsuspecting. Now I can understand how some people can get these adjustments 180 degrees out of whack.
I did the left side intake and exhaust and buttoned them up. Then went over to the right side. Here’s where I almost went off track again. The photos in my FSM copy are not exactly professional grade to begin with and, if not properly scrutinized, can be very misleading. Unbeknownst to me, the photo of the right side rocker arm pin adjustments is actually upside down. Glancing at it and assuming that you are viewing it from the right side and properly oriented, you will turn the adjustment pins the opposite way. It was only the fact that I had paid attention and learned well that the reference tick marks are supposed to be outboard which clued me in to the shenanigans. When I stopped and took a closer look is when it dawned on me that the photo is presented upside down.
Looking at the image as a whole I can see their twisted reasoning. This presentation keeps the intake and exhaust pins on the same side of the picture. But, I gotta say, this layout can be very confusing and misleading to someone who is unsuspecting. Now I can understand how some people can get these adjustments 180 degrees out of whack.
I saw that too but got distracted and forgot to bring it up, serious oversight on their part. In a clearer copy of the manual, it's easy to see the tach drive is upside down which is the first thing that stood out to me. Sad that it's out there misleading people though, and I guess I'll edit my sticky about the gasket to include it.
. STOP!’Made some good strides this week. First of all, I finally acquired a clutch cable that fits properly (on the third try). No excessive adjustment needed to get good clutch action. I guess third time really is a charm.
I got the steering damper installed. The lug I made worked out really well and the damper is set to run in the middle of its range.
Finally, I modified the kicker pedal to work with the Motobits rearsets. The factory kicker will work but the clearances are pretty tight and I wasn’t really able to get a good foot position on the pedal. Most times my foot would slip off and I would get kickback from the pedal. So I used a piece of 3/8” x 6” threaded pipe to extend the foot pedal beyond the rearset. Now I can get a good kick on the pedal for easier starting. I only use it for starting. Once the bike is running I remove the pedal for track use.
I got the steering damper installed. The lug I made worked out really well and the damper is set to run in the middle of its range.
Finally, I modified the kicker pedal to work with the Motobits rearsets. The factory kicker will work but the clearances are pretty tight and I wasn’t really able to get a good foot position on the pedal. Most times my foot would slip off and I would get kickback from the pedal. So I used a piece of 3/8” x 6” threaded pipe to extend the foot pedal beyond the rearset. Now I can get a good kick on the pedal for easier starting. I only use it for starting. Once the bike is running I remove the pedal for track use.
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After the aborted attempt at startup I took a reset and went at it again. I made the corrections suggested and rechecked EVERYTHING. I took another shot today and, Eureka! the bike started and ran without issue. No leaks, no smoke, no ticking, nor worrisome noises. The bike idled nicely and the top end gear ran nice and smoothly. Ran it through the gears on the stand with no problems. So, now it looks like the heavy lifting is done and just a few cosmetic items to complete.
I have video of it running but don’t have a place to host it and get it posted here.
I have video of it running but don’t have a place to host it and get it posted here.
Everything is looking good.
I'm sure you realize this and I know it will require a moment of your time at the track, but you'll need to use the pinch bolt in the kickstart lever or it will eventually start slipping and ruin the splines.
Yeah, I have it with the kick pedal. I didn’t use it today because I was doing a bunch of grinding and fitting. The kicker step diameter is too large to fit inside the 3/8” pipe and 1/2” is too big. I had to grind down the step portion bit by bit until it fit snugly enough to not come loose. Then I had to wrestle the rubber piece over the pipe.
Spent some time working on fitting the belly pan to my bike. These are a requirement by the rules for obvious reasons. Old bikes can have a tendency to leave slippery spots on track. I lined the bottom with oil absorbent cloth and put some wire mesh over it to hold it in place.
I used some loop clamps and fabricated brackets to mount it to the frame.
Here’s the belly pan mounted in place. Had to do some trimming and fitting to get it the way I wanted it.
I used some loop clamps and fabricated brackets to mount it to the frame.
Here’s the belly pan mounted in place. Had to do some trimming and fitting to get it the way I wanted it.
stl360+450
Veteran Member
Everything looks very clean. Nice work.
Thanks, much appreciated.
Getting down to the nitty gritty with this project now. A few more small details to be worked out. Finished my rattle can paint job. It’s no Mona Lisa for sure but from 10 feet away it looks presentable. Put the fuel cap and badges back on. I’m waiting on a Pingle fuel valve for the outlet and a couple of fittings to make the connections. I fitted this quick disconnect fitting to the balance tube so I can hopefully get the tank off without any hassle.
Other than that it’s mostly done. A little tuning and tweaking to get it right and I should be ready to roll. Still have to wait a few more weeks for my arm to fully heal before I can even think about riding it.
Other than that it’s mostly done. A little tuning and tweaking to get it right and I should be ready to roll. Still have to wait a few more weeks for my arm to fully heal before I can even think about riding it.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
Many nice refinements there to take in. Thanks for the detailed sharing. Looking forward to the many road tests and races to come.
Kind words, appreciated. Thanks to the many members here who helped me with this project. You shared your knowledge and insight which certainly saved me from going off the path more than once.
Are you sure your carb clamps are far enough back toward the carb body? It looks like the clamp in the pic above is toward the middle of the intake stub, and of course you want the clamp directly over the grooved area of the carb throat to properly clamp the carb.
I believe they are. That’s as far back as I can get them. Those clamps are aircraft type, they have an inner ring which is supposed to give even clamping pressure 360 degrees. The bike hasn’t displayed any signs of leaky intake boots but I will certainly keep an eye on it. If they’re problematic I will swap them out. OEM’s show as unavailable.
OEM clamps are fairly weak as carb clamps go, I just hate the look of standard American hose clamps but I'm using them on mine because of the oversized carbs and air filters. I should probably look into better appearing clamps, haven't liked those since using them.
Maybe it's an illusion about yours, but this is what I see and if it's true (and were mine), I'd move the clamp back a little so it's definitely behind the inner rib in the rubber stub that fits into the machined groove in the carb throat.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
I think it's kind of optical from the shadows and the thinner clamp section at the bottom. Would it be kosher to have the clamp flipped with screw at bottom?
No, I don't think the position of the clamping (adjustment) area wouldn't matter much. Look at the bottom of the picture (above), right above the "e" in jpeg, just in front of the throttle arm. Looks like the end of the intake stub to me and if so, the clamp is well ahead of where Honda always puts them. Couldn't find a decent picture of the real parts so this will have to do
ballbearian
Veteran Member
The bottom does look the tiniest bit further away. Also the non parallel gap tween clamp and head flange looks tilted.
In your drawing the screw is at bottom, the nontraditional missionary position.
In your drawing the screw is at bottom, the nontraditional missionary position.
Okay folks, here’s a better look at the clamp position. The first photo was misleading because of the shadows inside the shed. The clamp is up against the rib (between arrows) of the intake boot. It won’t go any further back. I used a screwdriver to lever it up against the rib when I installed it. It’s probably also misleading because the clamp is slightly wider than normal.
So the splayed-out rubber is part of the clamp then? I guess I can't see the forest for the trees, because it looks to me like the clamp is in the middle of the stub and squeezing it in the center like a fat guy with his belt too tight.
ballbearian
Veteran Member
I think AD is right, not being just a ghetto critic.
Honda had additional rear support from the metal filter box/filter setup, that you don't have now. When it's hot and twerking it could slide off.
I don't see any external rubber rib, so the clamps could/should be at the back edge of the rubber.
Honda had additional rear support from the metal filter box/filter setup, that you don't have now. When it's hot and twerking it could slide off.
I don't see any external rubber rib, so the clamps could/should be at the back edge of the rubber.