C200 Mystery Issue

HSmechanic

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N Illinois
Hello all you wise people,
I've got a C200 as my first bike. It was parked in a garage for 35 years, and I got it running and riding fine but now it is giving me troubles. I'll let you know all the info that might be related to the issue. It's been hard to kickstart. About 50-75% of the time, when I go to kick it over the engine will not actually spin. I can tell because there is not exhaust. Instead there is a gear whine kinda like from an old tractor. It's also harder to kick over when in this state, there is more resistance.
Reasons I'm guessing it could not be working:
- I first changed the oil to just whatever the cheap stuff was, and it continued to get worse. I figured it could be the clutch slipping so I went to JASO MA oil, which should have fixed it. This didn't really do anything.
- The transmission seems to be a bit worn. I don't know if this is a result of the constant mesh design or not but sometimes it is half in gear. When I roll back and forth to check if it's in neutral, there can sometimes be a loud clicking until I go up more forcefully into neutral. I was hoping to avoid a trans rebuilt until the winter, so I hope this is not the issue
- The clutch is worn out (but it only has 7400 miles, and the kickstart does sometimes engage, so idk)
- This could be me imagining things but it seems more able to make the engine turn when I start the kick when the lever is already halfway down its throw.
- The ratcheting mechanism is ok, I know because when it finally starts I can bonk it and hear it.

lmk if you want more info
Thanks
Winston
 
The kickstart relies on the clutch to rotate the engine. The clutch plates are held together by the clutch springs. The clutch adjustment at the case and via the cable adjusters could be set incorrectly and the plates could be slipping as a result. The oil you used initially may be playing a role here as well.

You could turn the cable adjusters all the way in to put slack on the clutch cable. If the clutch still slips while kick-starting, then you could adjust at the case. Remember to go through the clutch adjustments carefully before you try to put the motor in gear and ride it.

Another possibility is that the motorcycle is not in neutral. You should be able to rotate the rear wheel (on the center stand) without difficulty when the transmission is in neutral. If the transmission is in gear, the kickstarter would be trying to turn the rear wheel as well.
 
The sound you're hearing could very well be the clutch plates slipping during kicking it over. Those older clutches aren't typical design, and on the C200 engine the centrifugal oil filter is attached to the clutch after assembly. As mentioned above, check clutch adjustment and loosen both ends of the cable adjustment if you have little to zero slack at the lever to ensure the clutch is fully engaged, then see what happens with the kickstarter before going further.


 
Thanks you guys for the suggestions. But I've already got about a quarter inch of play at the lever before the clutch engages, and the bike is definitely in neutral when I kick it over. I am pretty religious about checking this after it almost drove away on me one time. I'm still a bit uncertain if I need new clutches though. Follow up questions for you guys:
How long do a set of clutches last when they are poorly maintained? This bike seems to have been abused or at least dropped a lot.
How does the constant mesh transmission work? I've looked through the manual I have and it is not clear enough for me. I think it might be the transmission because if the clutches are slipping, wouldn't the kickstart lever be easier to move? It is harder if not just as easy to as when it does engage the engine.
Is there a way to adjust the clutches aside from the barrel adjuster? Like I said I've got that set so it has a bit of slack before it moves that arm connected to the clutch basket assembly seen in ancientdad's helpful pictures.
Thanks in advance
 
HSmechanic said:
Thanks you guys for the suggestions. But I've already got about a quarter inch of play at the lever before the clutch engages
Click to expand...
What about the lever on the right crankcase cover? I had a couple of pushrod 90s back in the day but I can't recall if there's threaded adjustment at the lever on the cover. Just thinking about the other end of the cable holding zero slack on the lever art the cover.
HSmechanic said:
How long do a set of clutches last when they are poorly maintained?
Click to expand...
With bikes this old all you can do is disassemble them and measure the plates against factory spec, and the springs will probably be sacked a bit too from decades of being compressed. The plates rarely show visual signs of wear, just get a little bit thinner each which contributes to loss of spring tension and slippage. But if you have to disconnect the clutch cable at the engine, you want to be sure of the clutch and transmission operation before going into the right crankcase cover.
HSmechanic said:
How does the constant mesh transmission work?
Click to expand...
This video gives a decent explanation

HSmechanic said:
I've looked through the manual I have and it is not clear enough for me. I think it might be the transmission because if the clutches are slipping, wouldn't the kickstart lever be easier to move?
Click to expand...
If the bike still has the centerstand and the rear wheel is off the ground as it should be when on it, try this: engine off, roll the rear wheel with your hand as you try to shift the transmission. IIRC the shift pattern on the pushrod engines was neutral at the top, and all down from 1 through 4. With the engine sitting still and you moving the rear wheel with your hand, you should be able to shift it but it won't shift sitting still.
HSmechanic said:
Is there a way to adjust the clutches aside from the barrel adjuster?
Click to expand...
From the parts fiche it appears the lower end of the cable just fits into the bracket molded into toe cover, and there doesn't appear to be a screw-type adjuster in the cover so the upper cable adjustment must be the only one which seems unusual. Check your PMs, we have the FSM for it.
 
Hoping you can get the clutch working with just adjustment. 7400 is pretty low miles so it may not be actual wear. I would look careful at the kickstart mechanism, replacement shafts are nearly impossible to find, as are many of the parts for these C200s. Push starting is an option to avoid further damage until you get things right.
 
@ballbearian thanks for the response. I think the kickstart lever thankfully is fine; the same issue occurs when I try to bemp start. I am pretty certain it needs new clutches. I took off the small side cover and when spinning either the tire (w bike in gear) or the kickstart the clutch basket only spins intermittently. Now that school has ended, I figured if I can’t ride the bike I’d better fix it now. I am going to take off the big side of the case but I have run into some bigger issues aside from ubiquitous stripped phillips heads. First, the cover for the oil filter does not want to come off. The FSM seems to make it sound like it will pop off; is it ok to hit it a bit to get it free? Secondly, does anyone know if the big exhaust bolt is meant to come off? I don’t want it to come off with an unobtanium suspension bushing attached, especially because I don’t trust my 3d printing skills for something that critical.
If you guys have any clever solutions, chime in! I could use the help.
Thanks all,
Winston
IMG_1764.jpeg

The hard to get to screws
IMG_1763.jpeg
Centrifugal oil filter cover
IMG_1766.jpeg
The worrying exhaust bolt (center frame, and I already took out the other 4 nuts holding it on)
 
ancientdad said:
That's your first problem - they're not phillips, they're JIS screws and are not the same despite looking like phillips. You need a Vessel Megadora Impacta #3 JIS screwdriver
Click to expand...
This is an essential tool for all our older vintage Hondas. Also, soak all screw heads with WD40, etc. and gently peen the flared out cross heads to make a tighter fit. Use a large hammer.
 
Referencing prior post. The large swing arm pivot bolt nut comes off easy, if you hold the other side steady.
There is a 16mm 4 notch locknut held by bent lockwasher, #16, tabs. straighten the tabs then find or buy/make a 4 leg socket to remove the locknut, #15. Good time to clean out the centrifugal oil filter, that is usually neglected.
 
Referencing prior post. The large swing arm pivot bolt nut comes off easy, if you hold the other side steady.
There is a 16mm 4 notch locknut held by bent lockwasher, #16, tabs. straighten the tabs then find or buy/make a 4 leg socket to remove the locknut, #15. Good time to clean out the centrifugal oil filter, that is usually neglected.


EDIT: Sorry Tom. I goofed trying to post more pics from phone while also on with laptop. Wish I could delete it.
 
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