1971 CB450 K4 Cafe Racer Build "Aseizja"

Just for grins, my intro to power electrics professor taught that electron flow is from (-) to (+).
They weren't wrong! Watch lightning in super slow motion and the electron flow is visible, but damn does that make what is already a confusing system just that much more difficult. I've always wondered how many of these bikes get scrapped due to electrical issues that are misdiagnosed as engine/carb/etc.
 
Well I got the new oem wiring harness all hooked up today. It was way easier since the color coding was there and I made good use of the wiring diagrams and got it correctly wired right off of the bat.

Took it for a test ride to In n Out as is my tradition, it did really well it was way more powerful and clean sounding. No backfires or sputters at all. It idles nicely and didn’t die on me at all either. Just night and day difference.

Thanks for the advice and the parts link, this harness was perfect I loved the color coding being correct so I didn’t have to remove the sheathing it came in.

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Well, after a couple more test rides and some tinkering, the mystery continues. It is running better than before by a lot, it's much louder and more powerful. However it still has a similar stuttering at WOT/high rpms. It is noticeably better but still there. I replaced one of the fuel lines and cleaned up the routing a bit making it all down hill all the way which also seemed to improve it a bit. It still will stutter intermittantly on one side or the other when I lay into it though enough.

Some of my googling indicates this may just be an issue of the smaller gas tank with a singular fuel line pick up nozzle instead of a larger tank with dual fuel line nozzles coming out of the petcock. I'm not sure. I also tried to tinker with the idle synch a bit to see if that would help but to no avail it still stutters in the same way. Now at idle it will idle normally and then sort of idle low and stutter and then it will go back to normal for a while. Almost like the fuel is being starved for a second and then coming back.

I've already tried removing the seal around the gas cap and riding it without it to see if the bleeder was the issue and that didn't make a difference so I think that isn't the issue.
 
How do the plugs look after a ride? Also what kind of plugs are you running?
I put new plugs in it, set the gap in 'em to .030 if I recall correctly. The old plugs looked a bit lean but not too bad when I took em out. I would need to check the new ones I put in to give you a current answer though.

After putting some more miles on it, it really is running the best it ever has now. Unless you really gun it and move fast for a long time it won't bog down or go lean or whatever is happening when it starts seeming fuel starved. You could almost fool yourself into thinking it's completely fine if you never pushed it throttle wise.


It also seems to sort of want to die if I gun the throttle with it in neutral.
 
I put new plugs in it, set the gap in 'em to .030 if I recall correctly. The old plugs looked a bit lean but not too bad when I took em out. I would need to check the new ones I put in to give you a current answer though.

After putting some more miles on it, it really is running the best it ever has now. Unless you really gun it and move fast for a long time it won't bog down or go lean or whatever is happening when it starts seeming fuel starved. You could almost fool yourself into thinking it's completely fine if you never pushed it throttle wise.


It also seems to sort of want to die if I gun the throttle with it in neutral.
I should expand now, I just had the most exhausting ride on it. It was a long ride, at first the bike seemed to run really well and if I didn't hit the throttle too hard it was running really well. Then progressively it ran worse and worse, even after I parked it for a while it didn't want to idle anymore, and when I limped it home it was basically consistently getting fuel and running on the right side but the left side would be cut out completely and then as you hit certain throttle spots it would start kicking in too making the bike lurch with the sudden power increase. To me it reminds me of when a carburetor slide is catching and I believe I had to do a fair bit of sanding on that side's carb to make it run smoothly.

Also it ran out of gas at 49 miles on the odometer. Luckily I was only a few blocks from a gas station and there was sidewalk I could use so it was fine. Just seemed weird to me it wouldn't start even on reserve tank and it ran out on regular tank. I had to fill it up and then it ran just enough to get me home but it was very erratic and ran horribly the rest of the way back. I swear the tank usually is good out to 65 miles or so though, Usually even at it's worse it gets 30 mpg and that is a 2.5 gallon tank.
 
This one’s going to take a pretty methodical approach, but the first thing I’d rule out is trouble with the fuel supply - sounds like the bike had been sitting a while which means you could have tank rust, varnish, contaminates of some sort, etc that running a bunch of fuel through has shaken loose.

I’d go top down on fuel first, then ignition.

With the modified intake and exhaust you’re going to have some challenges regardless, but that’s usually idle performance and flat spots (likely a contributing factor to your WOT lag as well).

Check petcock screen and that you’ve got clean flow through both ports. Float heights and jets being clean and proper (was it rejetted after the intake/exhaust modifications?)

I’d really rule out that slide being bad as well. That thing should slide and spin like butter - and really shouldn’t need sanding - maybe a steel wool polish but sanding is rather aggressive.

Less likely but also possible is that the left coil is failing. Sometimes that takes them a bit of heat to start exhibiting real issues. Try flipping the coil leads and see if the issue changes sides.
 
Lots of possibilities here. Adding to Pete's suggestions, keep an eye out for an intermittent connection or grounding issue somewhere in the ignition wiring, i.e., points, leads, coils, caps, plugs, power, etc.

The idle issue was more than likely directly related to running on one side only.

It's easy enough to check the fuel level in these carbs. Just shut off the petcock, pull over, and drop a bowl to see where it's at. Too much fuel can cause a cylinder to drop out (bog) as easily as too little fuel.

You mentioned slightly lean plugs, so I am less likely to suspect fouling, but this should be ruled out also.

Was there any indication that the motor was getting too hot? Poor fuel flow can cause a lean condition and overheat the motor. An overheated motor will not run well.
 
This one’s going to take a pretty methodical approach, but the first thing I’d rule out is trouble with the fuel supply - sounds like the bike had been sitting a while which means you could have tank rust, varnish, contaminates of some sort, etc that running a bunch of fuel through has shaken loose.

I’d go top down on fuel first, then ignition.

With the modified intake and exhaust you’re going to have some challenges regardless, but that’s usually idle performance and flat spots (likely a contributing factor to your WOT lag as well).

Check petcock screen and that you’ve got clean flow through both ports. Float heights and jets being clean and proper (was it rejetted after the intake/exhaust modifications?)

I’d really rule out that slide being bad as well. That thing should slide and spin like butter - and really shouldn’t need sanding - maybe a steel wool polish but sanding is rather aggressive.

Less likely but also possible is that the left coil is failing. Sometimes that takes them a bit of heat to start exhibiting real issues. Try flipping the coil leads and see if the issue changes sides.
Some of this I can shed some light on, some of it I will definitely follow up on the bike with.

The tank seems relatively new and shiny, I haven't been able to spot any rust in it, or in the fuel in the carb float bowls.

I removed the petcock and examined the filter when I was trying to swap it to a dual nozzle stock one which, just as you guys informed me, wasn't the right size anyhow. The petcock filter was clean as a whistle, so rust seems an unlikely culprit. Also the float bowls were pretty clean, although the floats do look original based on the fact they are faded from the fuel line down.

I used 600 grit sandpaper on the slide just for a bit on a particularly bad black spot that was maybe a centimeter in diameter, then 0000 steel wool after the initial 600. The fact that of the two carbs whose slides I both examined the left one is the one I remember having a black goop spot on it makes me guess that it's just got to be I didn't get that spot polished well enough. Sounds like I need to be really careful not to sand it anymore though and probably just hit it with the steel wool only if at all possible.

That coil test idea is awesome. If polishing the slide some more doesn't work I'm definitely trying that. If it's harmless to swap them that's a pretty low effort test, great idea.

Thanks so much for taking the time to send me those well organized thoughts and tips EzPete. I appreciate you.
Lots of possibilities here. Adding to Pete's suggestions, keep an eye out for an intermittent connection or grounding issue somewhere in the ignition wiring, i.e., points, leads, coils, caps, plugs, power, etc.

The idle issue was more than likely directly related to running on one side only.

It's easy enough to check the fuel level in these carbs. Just shut off the petcock, pull over, and drop a bowl to see where it's at. Too much fuel can cause a cylinder to drop out (bog) as easily as too little fuel.

You mentioned slightly lean plugs, so I am less likely to suspect fouling, but this should be ruled out also.

Was there any indication that the motor was getting too hot? Poor fuel flow can cause a lean condition and overheat the motor. An overheated motor will not run well.
Roger that, I'm still hunting for those issues and will carry on.

Yeah I agree, that was how it felt too.

I have done that fuel level check, and I got really familiar with it doing the float bowl replacement and setting it's height on the other bike's carbs. From what I can tell using my ocular micrometers the float bowl looks about right and the fuel level too.

There was no indication the motor was getting too hot. When it was running good initially it wasn't hot at all, nor was it too cold it just seemed perfect temp. It did run a bit hot on the right side at the end of the right as I was limping home just because it was being worked too hard from what I can tell. Even then though it didn't feel way hot just a bit warmer than normal. I'm quite sure it didn't get so hot that it started running like crap, it was running normal temps the whole time.

Thanks again for responding y'alls. I appreciate it. This makes me more confident that it's the carb slide I need to go to next.
 
Oh, EzPete I forgot to reply to you and say I'm running the NGK BR8ES at .030.
Makes th coil even more of a possible culprit unless you’ve got non-resistor caps. Definitely try the coil swap and see if the problem moves side to side. If that coil is getting close to outer limit on spec the additional 5K ohm of the BR plug can give you some weird spark issues.
 
I appreciate it. This makes me more confident that it's the carb slide I need to go to next.
If you remove the airboxes and have the bike running on the center stand, try giving it throttle to see how the vacuum pistons behave. If one is rising and the other not, then maybe you need to replace that questionable vacuum piston. Which carb model do you have?

Electrical shorts/grounds and coil failure have not been ruled out so far, as Pete mentions.
 
Okay so today I ran a number of tests and tried some fixes and I think I finally found the issue. Feels obvious now that I know what it is again.

I polished up the carb slide a bit on the left side, it was pretty darn good but I think I got it just a bit better.

I tried running the left side carb I know is good from my other bike on it for a bit and it didn't solve the issue, still ran exactly the same which means we can probably rule out a carb issue now.

I ordered a brass 3/16th Y fitting on amazon to use in the fuel line split instead of the more restrictive T fitting.

I completely rerouted the throttle cable the stock routing and figured out it was definitely sticking in some spots and when you'd turn, now it isn't.

I found that the two JIS screws that hold the throttle cable bracket on the left side had blasted out the first few layers of threads and so the throttle cable was mounted with a slight wobble in it which made one carb out of synch even when it seemed synched. I was able to use some longer JIS screws to get into some good threads and some washers as spacers to get it solidly mounted.

Finally after all this the throttle was much better but the intermittent left side problem was still an issue. I started pushing on the spark plug wire to test out the connection and sure enough the bike died. I redid the connection just by cutting the old spark plug wire and rescrewing the cap into it. It's obvious that the old spark plug wire is just ancient and the cap isn't getting a good enough connection from it. I was able to redo it enough that it ran much better on a test run. I'm going to order some new coils for it and spark plug wires I think. It definitely was the issue I think because the left side cap I was able to just pull right out with a gentle pull, the right side was actually firmly connected enough it wouldn't pop out with a pull.

What caps and wires and coils do you guys recommend? I was thinking of basically stock coils more or less just because I'm not trying to stress the system. I'm guessing they were anemic though originally.

Here’s some pictures of the replaced screws on the carb with their extra washers. It’s not pretty but it works.

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If the coils still spec out, you can just replace the high tension wire(s) and reuse the caps with many coil designs. Available at auto parts store by the foot.

Or you can run the 4into1 coils. They seem to be a solid value.
 
Good work on the diagnosis. The coil wire/cap connection was hopefully the big issue, but you also took care of some other things that could have been muddying the waters or causing trouble down the road.

I've used the black OEM-style coils from 4-into-1 with no issues. You could also order a set of new caps and modify them for resistor plugs, if you haven't already done so.
 
Wow I had no idea the can of worms that the non resistor vs resistor caps and plugs would open up. I'm sort of shocked but not shocked that those guys in Houston collective sells resistor plugs and doesn't warn about the need for non resistor caps with them. Where do you guys get non resistor caps? Have you done the conversion yourselves?
 
It's not difficult, but the process can be easier or harder depending on the construction of the caps, which basically determines which end you can most easily remove.

@ancientdad made a post a while ago showing how he converted resistor caps to non-resistor. His were the more difficult variety where you have to remove the screw end that goes onto the coil wire.

I recently bought a set from 4-into-1 and converted them. These can be done by unscrewing the plug connector end, which is much easier. I disassembled one fully, anyways, for no good reason. That post is here.

Since there are still suitable non-resistor plugs from Nippon Denso and no one seems to sell the 120° non-resistor caps for the dohc 450, I don't blame anyone for not issuing a warning. They probably wouldn't even be able to sell them legally if they modified them in house.
 
Wow I had no idea the can of worms that the non resistor vs resistor caps and plugs would open up. I'm sort of shocked but not shocked that those guys in Houston collective sells resistor plugs and doesn't warn about the need for non resistor caps with them. Where do you guys get non resistor caps? Have you done the conversion yourselves?
I did find some NGK 0K caps on eBay from Latvia - whether or not they’re real remains to be seen but they work.

Otherwise, it’s eBay plugs and hope they’re not fakes, modify the caps or go ND plugs.
 
Because I'm in the middle of a move right now things are crazy busy but, I will give you some updates real quick.

I took the new spark plug caps off of my other bike and I used them with the old plugs, I wire brushed them before remembering you aren't supposed to do that although I was as gentle as I could be. The old plugs are non resistor type, the new caps are resistor type 180 degrees. The old caps were 90 degree caps that were routed poorly and also I didn't do a great job with fraying the wires before screwing them into them which I'm lead to believe makes them get a much better connection.

Now the bike runs super well. Doesn't die at idle and it's got a huge amount of power and smoothness it's never had before. It feels almost perfect but I think theres still the smallest stutter in the system. I think it might just need some new coils and wires and maybe I'll throw a new condenser on it too. After I move to the new place that is. But for now it seems very reliable and powerful I took it on multiple long test rides just smiling ear to ear and hanging on for dear life.
 
Oh and of course I'll order some non resistor spark plugs from one of your guys' sources after I move in and can use my new address! And probably do the resistor removal mod on the caps ADs post explains so nicely.
 
Oh and of course I'll order some non resistor spark plugs from one of your guys' sources after I move in and can use my new address! And probably do the resistor removal mod on the caps ADs post explains so nicely.
Be cautious buying B8ES now, there were a lot of Chinese fakes out there right after the non-resistor B8ES were discontinued.

 
So I bought a new coil, but my almost new spark plugs don’t spark :mad:
hold a HT lead close to the cylinder head and lo, a spark! :oops:
rummage around my spark box tin and pull out a plug without an ‘R’ on it, says it’s a NGK D8EA?
Put this in the NGK plug holder put body of plug on cylinder head, spin engine (ignition on, ha ha) and lo it sparks :D
my original Honda Owners Manual says use NGK DR8ES, I bought two new from the Honda dealer, not sure what the ‘R’ on the plug means but NGK DR8ES they are!

Think you can guess the rest. Took my D8EA (black not blue writing) to my Honda shop and the spare parts man takes one look at it, smiles beneficently at me, shakes head slowly. EBay here I come.

No new knowledge here, but thought you might like to hear about my ‘fun n games’

Many Thanks
 
The R stands for resistor and if you use resistor plugs you need to make sure you are using non resistor caps otherwise there is too much resistance and you have poor spark. The resistance for one or the other should be 5 thousand ohms and the other should be close to zero. Also be aware that there is problem with counterfeit NGK plugs being sold. I ordered some from a reputable source when I first started my build and when I got ready to use them had issues and when I checked with an ohm meter they all checked bad with very high resistance, 20K ohms and more, and should have been zero as I was using resistor caps. I am currently using Denso 4030 W24ES-U spark plugs with good results with resistor caps.
 
The R stands for resistor and if you use resistor plugs you need to make sure you are using non resistor caps otherwise there is too much resistance and you have poor spark. The resistance for one or the other should be 5 thousand ohms and the other should be close to zero. Also be aware that there is problem with counterfeit NGK plugs being sold. I ordered some from a reputable source when I first started my build and when I got ready to use them had issues and when I checked with an ohm meter they all checked bad with very high resistance, 20K ohms and more, and should have been zero as I was using resistor caps. I am currently using Denso 4030 W24ES-U spark plugs with good results with resistor caps.
Many Thanks for the information
The D8EA I bought yesterday gives approx zero ohms. Box says ‘made in Japan’?
 
Good evening Gentlemen,

I've been unpacking and moving things for months now, but life is finally somewhat established at my new place now. I'm also finally riding Aseizja to work consistently without any major issues. Let me try and some up the journey from "sputtering and coughing" to "pretty much running perfectly (besides this one strange issue it's always had).

So lets see I went ahead and purchased a nice quality $70 multimeter after doing some research on which ones were decent for this kind of stuff. Then I used the ohms setting to make sure that the mods I did to my spark plug caps to remove their resistors were successful, and also to check that the caps got a proper bite into the copper of the wires and didn't lose connection no matter how you tugged and bent them around.

I went with the new 5ohm resistor plugs, and then I also replaced both of my coils and my condenser with the OEM replacements from 4into1. I also swapped the gas tank to the OEM gas tank from my other bike, which I'm still rebuilding the engine on right now anyhow. Just to rule out the CB125 tank as the issue. I used proper 5mm fuel lines with hose clamps just to be sure everything was hooked up correctly, followed the OEM fuel line routing and lengths. Of course I also adjusted the points, and I replaced the points. I noticed the edge of the points plate is bent about 3 degrees at an angle on one side's edge, could this cause these types of issues? I didn't want to go replacing it until I heard from you guys since I'll need to redo my points again when i do.

I also did the cam chain adjustment (this time without nuking an engine, thankfully lmao). Cam chain sounds beautifully quiet and happy now.

I also checked the ignition advancer and sure enough that sucker did nottt "snap back" when I spun it up. It was real rusty and stiff. I tried to restore it to health by way of PB blaster and flexing the springs around and wire brushing them clean. No dice. Even tried cutting off a loop of the spring and using the next loop down as a hook to tighten the springs, bike still had a hanging idle when I did that. So finally I just swapped the ignitiion advancer unit from the other bike into it, which solved the hanging idle problem and really made things start to work and make sense. I then ordered a ignitiion advancer unit that's in decent shape of of ebay for $50 that was for a CB500 (I understand they are compatible?) I plan to swap this one into the bike soon so I can keep all the original parts for my other bike on my other bike.

There was an issue with one of the carburetors too where it was leaking a bit from the bowl, and also the carb slide seemed crunchy not buttery smooth. After I smoothed out the slide a bit with some 0000 wool and WD40 it worked way better. At one point I even made the brilliant mistake of putting diesel in my gas tank and kicking over the bike a few times before I realized what I did.

Anyhow long story short, between that and putting in the new electrical harness adn grounds and fuses the bike finally is becoming dare I say "reliable"

There is but one evil symptom that eludes my abilities to solve it's riddle. The bike still has these very small stuttered sometimes, only when you are genuinely giving it every last bit of throttle you can and really gunning it you can get it to have some slight stuttering aroun d 6-7k rpms and not very consistently and it will often not even do it at all now. When it does do it you can ease off the throttle for a second and it catches up. My mind wanders to things like maybe the float bowl level at this point? I"m just not sure. I even have had the desperate thought that maybe it's related to my weird shifter and clutch issue? Like maybe the clutch is only half engaged so it's slipping a bit when under maximum pressure? Or maybe it just needs fresh springs? I'm curious to see what you guys think.

By and large though this bike is properly sorted, it starts easily on the first kick every time now, unless it's the first start for the day and even then it'll start with a couple kicks and the choke halfway on and then stays running on it's own steam. No troubles idling or with hanging idles now (this was a major issue for me) and also the bike sounds MUCH MUCH healthier and happier and feels powerful and proper. The only thing is that slight clutch slip or something when I really lay into it and walk my way up into 3rd rapidly.
 
When I hear you say "stuttering" when putting the whip to 'er I think fuel flow at max effort or ignition. A slipping clutch would not normally create a stutter, just excess RPM without going any faster, if I'm understanding the sitchoo correctly.

Others will chime in, I don't have CB450 experience
 
That high end stutter is usually fuel/air mix. Slightly possible, but far less likely, it could be excessive dwell time - usually caused by the right points being out of whack. That hits more like a wall though.

You mention a tee junction in the fuel lines? Factory petcock has dual outputs - each carb should have its own line. Possible fuel delivery issue?

The advancer from the 500T does have a slightly different advance curve. It would be interesting to see what impact that has.
 
I've run the 500T advancer on my CB450 without any issues and mapped out the advance curve for the particular used unit I have. It fell within the ranges indicated in the factory service manual.

It never hurts to verify your timing dynamically. If it's not advancing far enough at high rpm it might cause stuttering.

If your float height is high, one or both bowls may be running dry. Throttle cable synch plays into this also. If they are out of whack, the side that's working harder could exhaust the fuel in the bowl. Both of these fuel level ideas are consistent with the idea that you can let off the throttle momentarily and then go again after the fuel delivery catches up. Show petcock flow is another possibility.
 
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I did just check and there's no play in my clutch lever, so I will definitely adjust it properly and get back to y'alls after a test ride. I normally adjust it properly, but there's been a lot of things I've been working on so I may have messed with it and forgotten. Definitely has no play in it so I'll check it next. Also just to rule the fuel lines and tank problem out I went back to a stock oem cb450 tank and fuel lines set up. So no T fitting and smaller diameter lines off a single outlet now. Just because I wanted to rule it out and have the parts.
 
I've run the 500T advancer on my CB450 without any issues and mapped out the advance curve for the particular used unit I have. It fell within the ranges indicated in the factory service manual.

It never hurts to verify your timing dynamically. If it's not advancing far enough at high rpm it might cause stuttering.

If your float height is high, one or both bowls may be running dry. Throttle cable synch plays into this also. If they are out of whack, the side that's working harder could exhaust the fuel in the bowl. Both of these fuel level ideas are consistent with the idea that you can let off the throttle momentarily and then go again after the form delivery catches up. Show petcock flow is another possibility
That's great to hear about the 500T advancer! And the synch looks good to me by eye as far as watching how far both inner bits of the carb's move when I slowly open the throttle they seem pretty well matched up no slack in either line and they both are relatively similar as far as how far they are adjusted (I've noticed when the cable gets hung up on the frame one will have to be adjusted to far to compensate).
 
The float bowls are sort of an unkown quantity on these carbs. They look fine but I never submerged them to test them or really measured the bowl properly just eyeballed the bend in the tabs to make sure it looked normal at a glance. I haven't seen any leaking out the overflow tubes at least.
 
The float bowls are sort of an unkown quantity on these carbs. They look fine but I never submerged them to test them or really measured the bowl properly just eyeballed the bend in the tabs to make sure it looked normal at a glance. I haven't seen any leaking out the overflow tubes at least.
I ignored the float height when I was first learning my way around my carburetors, but it's super easy to check the float height and it is important to have it right. You can substitute a ruler or pair of calipers where I have the float gauge or make a fixed gauge for 20mm and use that.

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I ignored the float height when I was first learning my way around my carburetors, but it's super easy to check the float height and it is important to have it right. You can substitute a ruler or pair of calipers where I have the float gauge or make a fixed gauge for 20mm and use that.

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Yeah, I'll do this next. Already did it for my other bike, I will do it next for this one, It's not that much effort besides waiting for the gas and gasket to dry out before putting the bowl back on perfectly.
 
That's great to hear about the 500T advancer! And the synch looks good to me by eye as far as watching how far both inner bits of the carb's move when I slowly open the throttle they seem pretty well matched up no slack in either line and they both are relatively similar as far as how far they are adjusted (I've noticed when the cable gets hung up on the frame one will have to be adjusted to far to compensate).
Eyes are notoriously fallible. Sync using the wire method.

One piece of wire, bent in a v shape. Slide under the carb and let the slides seat on it.

Very slowly open the throttle while holding tension on the V of the wire. If one side “releases” before the other, they’re not in sync.
 
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