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CB450 Black Bomber - Am I becoming a hoarder?

See, putting it all out there this morning was therapeutic. Thanks guys! Feeling a little more up beat.

I need to head to the city to watch my son's basketball game and I've decided to stop by the shop and pick up my rolling chassis to bring home and put right a few little things that are on my mind while they tackle the engine. (Horn, new lever/mirror perches, speedometer issues, headlight wiring.)
 
Hang in there. I have tales from both sides of the counter in service departments that would curl your hair. Like Tom and others I have a very hard time trusting others to get things right the first time.
 
Troy said:
See, putting it all out there this morning was therapeutic. Thanks guys! Feeling a little more up beat.

I need to head to the city to watch my son's basketball game and I've decided to stop by the shop and pick up my rolling chassis to bring home and put right a few little things that are on my mind while they tackle the engine. (Horn, new lever/mirror perches, speedometer issues, headlight wiring.)
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I agree. Finally posting my sob story about a botched rebore allowed me to move on and get back to enjoying the whole process of a rebuild. I really believe the gang here at VHT actually cares, for the most part, and that kind of friendship is priceless.

An old guy once told me, if you don't give up, you can't be beat.
 
ballbearian said:
...for the most part
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Obviously I can't speak for all the members, but I most certainly do. I wouldn't have spent roughly half (or more) of every single day since June 1, 2020 here if I didn't. Ever since discovering how much misinformation there is on the internet when I joined that other forum in late 2016, especially from one particular source, I've tried to make it a mission to both refute their garbage and help as many as I can learn that we know the right way to do things on our beloved vintage Honda twins.
 
It's been an awful long while. I know that aside from Teebo, probably nobody here has been wondering about where I've been. Well, I've been licking my wounds. The Black Bomber is still in Calgary. All engine work is complete and I'm just waiting for a few parts to come back from the painter. Not much of an update but as winter starts to take hold, things get less busy in my life and I'm able to spend more time in the garage and on the computer. With 3 projects in the garage I've decided to focus my attention on the 1967 CD175. I think I may have a thread here on that bike somewhere so I'll change channels and see you all there.
 
Troy said:
I know that aside from Teebo, probably nobody here has been wondering about where I've been.
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I know the feeling when all you hear is crickets... but new threads pop up daily and tend to distract from the long, ongoing projects, that's all. I have a level of personal interest in every single 450 thread here, and I'm reminded that you are waiting on mistakes to be resolved. Looking forward to hearing good news from you.
 
I haven’t forgotten about you Troy or your Bomber project. It is understandable that you would need to take some time off after the setback you had to endure with the motor. It is good to know you are alive and well and the project is still ongoing. We’ll be here whenever you are ready to share any updates in the future.
 
I personally make molasses look like a speedy runner. Once in a while I get myself back into the garage and start messing around, lately with a partial CB450K0 engine that's been under a shelf in my garage for years, and was in a similar place for decades before that. I know nothing about it except that it over-bored a lot. The head and timing chain are missing. This is a hobby for me, something I do because I want to. Until the past week or so I've been pretty happy not doing much of anything on my bikes, but then the urge came back. If you get back to the CD175 you'll know right away whether the energy has returned.
 
Well...It's been an interesting month and I've been meaning to post for a while. The Bomber is up and running, albeit not perfectly. Put a few miles on it, rode it in the Distinguished Gentleman's Ride and have done a few other short rides around my area. I will post pics and more soon enough.

Today there is a problem that I hope somebody can offer some wisdom on. Yesterday, drained the battery pretty low trying to get it started. Put the charger on and then took a different bike for a ride. I'm actually not positive but I think I left the ignition on when the charger was on the battery. Now the main fuse blows whenever I turn the ignition on. Got up early this morning and started working on a diagnosis but need to head off to work. I have a theory but would love to hear the theories here. I'm pretty sure it's related to the charging and not a random short somewhere. The electrical system was working fine before the charger went on. The bike didn't otherwise move and now I'm blowing fuses.
 
Spitballing:
Maybe a coil melted and shorted out, creating a direct path to ground? You could disconnect coils from power to see if the fuse still blows.

I'm assuming the charger was removed when you were blowing the fuses? Otherwise, could the charger have been causing the short by touching the frame?
 
stl360+450 said:
Spitballing:
Maybe a coil melted and shorted out, creating a direct path to ground? You could disconnect coils from power to see if the fuse still blows.
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Probably this if he did actually leave the key on. No kill switch on the Bomber, key on = coil hot.
 
My bet is coil too. I’ve done this. Coils seemed to be fine but battery was dead. I didn’t have charger hooked up.

Did have the starter solenoid stick closed and it fried my battery. Nearly burst open. But that’s different.
 
Ok...now the next question with a bit of a preamble...
I am highly motivated to get this resolved in the next 48 hours if possible. The reason being that I am taking a little trip to visit the guy who I got the bike from in it's decrepit state over 2 years ago and would like to bring the Bomber with me for him to see.
Of course you can't go to the local auto parts store and buy a set of coils! But I did find these on Amazon and they would arrive tomorrow. The listing doesn't specifically say that they will work with my model but they do fit the CB350 and I have found other sources online that say the same coils fit the 350 and my 450 therefore these might fit mine. Anybody have insight?

If I can't have them here tomorrow then the bike stays at home for this trip and the world keeps spinning.

 
On 4into1 the coils are the same for both models. In fact, I had a spare set for my 350 and used them on my 450.

The caps are different though. But you’ll just use your original ones.
 
If they work for 350/360, they should work for the 450, but the only reviews I found with actual text suggest that they don't work at all. Terminals would need to be adapted in any case.

Sketchy option #2

If there is any kind of motorcycle dealership or shop in your area, I would make calls to see if you can find a suitable coil rather than waste $40 on those.

I guess shipping from places like 4-into-1 is more complicated to Canada, but what if you had the coils shipped to your destination?

I gather you've confirmed that the short was through a coil?
 
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They'll work on a later 450. I threw those same ones on when troubleshooting my mystery ignition failure to eliminate coil (which it turned out to be). They take some minor wiring adjustments and I had to get real creative with fitting them in the bracket.
 
Thanks all. One of my challenges is that I'm an hour from the city and so that can be limiting when I need something slightly out of the ordinary. Regarding the Amazon coils, I hadn't actually had the time to read the reviews before I put it up here. With enough really lousy reviews, I decided to forego that. I order from 4into1 from time to time but it is slow and expensive to get stuff here...same goes for all US sites that offer free shipping to the lower 48.
My friends at the shop in the city have ordered coils for me and we are crossing our fingers that they can be overnight shipped and get here in the nick of time.
 
Troy said:
Thanks all. One of my challenges is that I'm an hour from the city and so that can be limiting when I need something slightly out of the ordinary. Regarding the Amazon coils, I hadn't actually had the time to read the reviews before I put it up here. With enough really lousy reviews, I decided to forego that. I order from 4into1 from time to time but it is slow and expensive to get stuff here...same goes for all US sites that offer free shipping to the lower 48.
My friends at the shop in the city have ordered coils for me and we are crossing our fingers that they can be overnight shipped and get here in the nick of time.
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It so happens that 4into1 is incredibly slow for me too. I can get stuff faster from CMSNL and it crosses an ocean and half the US.

But at least knowing the 350 versions work might help find others. Though probably not enough time unless local.
 
I just ride down I880 and pick up my order from 4 into 1. It's not a store, just a warehouse with a buzzer. The ride, on the other hand, is pretty nerve wracking.
 
There are more shootings on I-580 in Oakland. A fair amount of I-880 has been repaved, but the truck traffic from the Port of Oakland is very heavy. I have more faith in truckers than car drivers, who are often scared to death or trying to go 20 mph faster than the traffic (which is going 75). You get on the road, eyes wide open, pay attention, assume nothing and proceed.
 
wentwest said:
There are more shootings on I-580 in Oakland. A fair amount of I-880 has been repaved, but the truck traffic from the Port of Oakland is very heavy. I have more faith in truckers than car drivers, who are often scared to death or trying to go 20 mph faster than the traffic (which is going 75). You get on the road, eyes wide open, pay attention, assume nothing and proceed.
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Haven't been there in several years but will be in August, thanks for the heads up on 580.
 
I hate to hijack my thread back from those of you who worry about getting shot on the highway. Funny how not getting shot is just something that I take for granted. Anyhow, my friend at the shop in the city ordered me some new coils and had them express shipped directly to me. Purolator tracking says they will be here today. Barring another problem I will install them and load the bike on my truck for a 6 hour drive back to the field where it was found a few years ago so everyone can admire the transformation. I will also ride it out for a visit to my late uncle's grave site. He owned one brand new when he was a teenager and greatly informed my love of motorcycles.

Last night I had this horrible recurring dream that some bizarre parts showed up in the package instead of a set of coils. Hoping the reality is different than that.
 
Troy said:
I hate to hijack my thread back from those of you who worry about getting shot on the highway.
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Sorry about the thread drift.
Troy said:
Funny how not getting shot is just something that I take for granted.
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Yes, it used to be pretty much universal that we could move about without fear of highwaymen and the like, but sadly around big cities these days it's reverting to the old American west to some degree.
Troy said:
Anyhow, my friend at the shop in the city ordered me some new coils and had them express shipped directly to me. Purolator tracking says they will be here today. Barring another problem I will install them and load the bike on my truck for a 6 hour drive back to the field where it was found a few years ago so everyone can admire the transformation. I will also ride it out for a visit to my late uncle's grave site. He owned one brand new when he was a teenager and greatly informed my love of motorcycles.

Last night I had this horrible recurring dream that some bizarre parts showed up in the package instead of a set of coils. Hoping the reality is different than that.
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Hopefully the package contents will be exactly what you need and you can make it to your planned destinations, particularly the most sentimental one where your uncle lies waiting for your visit. I completely understand the intent, and I admire your thinking and reverence for his influence. Looking forward to the pictures.
 
Troy said:
I hate to hijack my thread back from those of you who worry about getting shot on the highway. Funny how not getting shot is just something that I take for granted. ...

Last night I had this horrible recurring dream that some bizarre parts showed up in the package instead of a set of coils. Hoping the reality is different than that.
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Sorry, I was the instigator about getting shot.

There are times when I embarrass myself being so eager for the parts I order to be delivered. I sure hope your coils come through and the bike roars to life again. Nothing quite as sweet as the sound of an old bike running again.
 
wentwest said:
Sorry, I was the instigator about getting shot.

There are times when I embarrass myself being so eager for the parts I order to be delivered. I sure hope your coils come through and the bike roars to life again. Nothing quite as sweet as the sound of an old bike running again.
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Don't worry about it. I hope you never get shot on the highway! I think we can all relate to the eagerness to get our parts...it's like Christmas.

My coils arrived this afternoon around 2:30. Within the hour everything was reassembled and running, bike loaded and a 6 hour drive to visit some family. Now I'm in the same hotel that I was in when I started this thread in October of 2021. This quick visit will be a full circle sort of homecoming for the Bomber and I plan to do a couple of rides in the next couple of days. I'll try to take some pics.

I must acknowledge that my participation with this thread has been sporadic over the last year or so as some problems stalled the project once or twice. The past month has been productive though. Was finally able to complete the licensing process and get the bike on the road. Have put 200 miles on it & rode it in the DGR where it attracted its fair share of attention. Our spring has been very cool and wet so not ideal riding weather.

Now that the first phase of the project is complete it will be on to the fine tuning and I'm sure I'll lean on the veterans here for some ideas. I had the engine rebuilt...twice. That's a long story and I'd rather not retell it again. I'm reasonably confident that the second time it was well done and I'm looking forward to years of fun with it. That being said I'm not across the finish line yet. Above 2000 rpm it's pure joy. Anything less than that and it stalls. It also takes some coaxing to start it as well. I haven't obsessed over this yet as I just felt like after 2.5 years and a small fortune I deserved to ride it a little bit before driving myself nuts trying to solve problems.

Over the course of the summer I will move onto phase 2...fine tuning and getting everything as close to perfect as possible. I always love the cold start videos of the vintage bikes where somebody lays their hands on the cool headers, turns the key and pushes the button only to hear the engine roar to life and idle beautifully. With a little help from VHT friends I hope to get there some day.
 
Troy said:
That's a long story and I'd rather not retell it again.
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There's plenty of documentation of your struggles at the hands of a bad shop in your thread, no need for re-hash as it was discouraging and painful enough, even for us reading about it because of how we feel about modern shops and the typical treatment of vintage bike customers.
Troy said:
With a little help from VHT friends I hope to get there some day.
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We'll do our best to help you get there. Glad you got to do your visit back to the area as planned and hopefully your rides will go as expected.
 
Troy said:
Now that the first phase of the project is complete it will be on to the fine tuning and I'm sure I'll lean on the veterans here for some ideas. I had the engine rebuilt...twice. That's a long story and I'd rather not retell it again. I'm reasonably confident that the second time it was well done and I'm looking forward to years of fun with it.
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In addition to having names that start with “T”, Troy and I share the dubious honor of having a Black Bomber going through two engine rebuilds.

I feel this makes us motorcycle blood brothers. Though perhaps not blood. Oil? Tears?

But hey. If it’s worth rebuilding once, it’s worth doing it twice?
 
teebo said:
In addition to having names that start with “T”, Troy and I share the dubious honor of having a Black Bomber going through two engine rebuilds.

I feel this makes us motorcycle blood brothers. Though perhaps not blood. Oil? Tears?

But hey. If it’s worth rebuilding once, it’s worth doing it twice?
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How about sweat siblings?
 
teebo said:
In addition to having names that start with “T”, Troy and I share the dubious honor of having a Black Bomber going through two engine rebuilds.

I feel this makes us motorcycle blood brothers. Though perhaps not blood. Oil? Tears?

But hey. If it’s worth rebuilding once, it’s worth doing it twice
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The Bomber Bros.
 
About 40 miles yesterday. Seems to be struggling to get enough fuel (or a carb problem, or electrical gremlin, or.....??? I'm sure there are many possibilities) Seems incapable of getting much past 4000 rpm. ( A little worse up a hill, a little better down a hill) When parked and in neutral it revs high without any problem but under a load it is bogged down. The one small thing I noticed is that when starting out it revs higher without trouble but quickly gives up. There are moments when it sputters and lurches a bit too. I'm in a hotel with only a few tools but I'll spend a bit of time today double checking the fuel flow is good but there isn't much else I can do right now. Not going to pull the carbs but I'll check the petcock, fuel lines, filters, etc.

On the plus side I rode an old winding highway and I just love the feel of this small bike through the tight corners. Everything about that felt so vintage which I absolutely loved.
 
I didn't notice a difference cold or warm but to be honest I didn't really have the opportunity to evaluate that as the bike was well warmed before I got to the highway and tried to get up to any speed. Anything is possible and worth investigating. This engine is essentially brand new and still in need of a first tune-up. I don't have one with me but will swing by an auto parts store and grab a feeler gauge so I can check. Thanks for the suggestion.
 
Random thoughts are welcome...no, encouraged.

Thought I might check valve clearances today as per ballbearian's comments, then realized it involved pulling the fuel tank and required more time and space than I had available. Fuel flow seems more than adequate so I don't think that is a problem.

Some positive news though. Although due to nothing that I did, today the bike idled WAY better. Previously would stall at anything less than 2000 rpm. Now seems to idle comfortably at 1500 rpm. Also rode about 20 miles and this was improved over yesterday as well. Yesterday the bike struggled to give me anything over 4000 rpm on the highway and today it seemed happy at 5500 rpm / 60 mph. Started to run a bit rough around 6000 so I didn't push it. To ballbearian's earlier comment I would say that the engine seemed a little less "happy" as it got hotter but still much better than yesterday.

The bike and I are headed home tomorrow and then I will go through the tune-up process in the FSM when I have a bit more time and space.

Of course this machine is completely different than anything I've previously ridden and while it takes a bit of getting used to it a joy. Starting to notice a few other things too as I get more comfortable and am able to pay attention to what else is going on. A bit of clutch slippage when cold and the occasional backfire.

Also was able to take the bike for a visit to the guy that I got it from 2.5 years ago when it was in it's original messy state and he was very pleased to see the transformation.

All in all a positive day.
 
Troy said:
All in all a positive day.
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Most definitely. Here it is Summer and the bike is up and running, some major and minor hurdles overcome. A few successful trips under it's and your belt.

With a seemingly random self healing, it might just be some semi clogged or sluggish passages in the carbs that are getting flushed out. When you get to doing it's full re-adjustment tune up you'll know, or at least eliminate any other motor/mechanical issues.

Maybe it's just responding to the call of the wild and the freedom of the road.

Well done.
 
I'm back....It's been a rough couple of months personally. Time for some motorcycle therapy.

So...finally some time to try to work on getting the Bomber running better. Haven't touched it in the past couple of month except for a couple of short rides which confirmed that things aren't right. As a reminder I only have 200-250 miles on a rebuilt engine.

Today I'm working through the tune-up procedure in the FSM. Haven't made any adjustments just yet but wanted to share where I'm at so far.

Compression test: (To be fair my compression tester is a cheapo so I don't trust the values to be perfectly accurate but it gives an idea)
Right Cylinder: Dry - 105 PSI, Wet 135 PSI
Left Cyliner: Dry - 115 PSI, Wet 225 PSI (I have no idea what to make of this...checked it multiple times)

Valve Clearances: FSM calls for 0.30mm (Boy this is a bit of a task to get at these things!) The valves are way tight...so tight that I was stumped as to why I couldn't seem to find the right adjustment points when turning the crank. I finally used the thinnest gauge I have to work it out.
Right: Intake 0.18mm, Exhaust 0.20mm
Left: Intake 0.05 (yes that's not a type, could this correlate in any way to the weird compression?), Exhaust 0.20

I pulled the carbs the get at the intake valves but haven't touched them or taken a closer look at them. My initial thoughts were that the poor performance probably was going to be a carb problem but now I'm not so sure and I'd rather not tinker with them so that I can determine the cause and effect of each adjustment I make independent of other variables.

Feedback welcome.
 
I'm not used to valve adjustments done with metric gauges, but when I saw you said 0.30 for the clearance it rang a bell with me. This is from the CB450K0 owner's manual

1723322407323.png
 
Thanks AD, That's what the FSM says too, I was just misreading the decimel
...that changes thing for me a bit...and confuses me even more.
I have 2 sets of feeler gauge and neither of them have a gauge that small. The smallest is .0015 (0.04 mm) Regardless that would mean that most of my valves are not too tight but WAY too loose?
 
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Troy said:
Thanks AD, That's what the FSM says too, I was just misreading the decimel
...that changes thing for me a bit...and confuses me even more.
I have 2 sets of feeler gauge and neither of them have a gauge that small. The smallest is .0015 (0.04 mm) Regardless that would mean that most of my valves are not too tight but WAY too loose?
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Well, 0.30mm is way too loose, that's for sure. A bit loose is not a bad thing, especially after a rebuild in which the valves are new and the seats had been cut as they'll settle in a bit. But you don't want them excessively loose either, of course. I like to set them at .002" (0.05mm) but until you get a thinner feeler gauge you can get by at .003" (0.076mm) but I personally wouldn't run them any looser for any length of time.

And you're checking them between the cam lobe and the follower as in the pic above, right? Not at the follower tip and the valve stem.
 
Thanks. I will set them at that. I found a .002" gauge. What, if any change might I expect after these adjustments are made?

Any thought on that wild compression value I mentioned?
 
My first thought when I saw the over 200 lb reading was a bit too much oil reducing squish area space. Does seem odd. Since you're actually reducing the valve clearance a little the change probably won't result in anything tangible.
 
ancientdad said:
My first thought when I saw the over 200 lb reading was a bit too much oil reducing squish area space. Does seem odd. Since you're actually reducing the valve clearance a little the change probably won't result in anything tangible.
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Well, I'll adjust valves...see how it runs and check compression again. It sounds like you aren't expecting any noticeable improvement in performance from these valve adjustments so perhaps I should throw the carbs in the ultrasonic while I've got them off.
 
Troy said:
Well, I'll adjust valves...see how it runs and check compression again. It sounds like you aren't expecting any noticeable improvement in performance from these valve adjustments so perhaps I should throw the carbs in the ultrasonic while I've got them off.
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I guess it couldn't hurt, not sure what the status of them was before. Of course, just clean your hard parts and not replace from kits.
 
The carbs were completely overhauled by someone much smarter than me. Of course I'm not an expert but my gut all along has been telling me that the poor performance of the bike was carb related...not getting enough fuel at times, perhaps just something blocked. I don't plan to completely disassemble them or make any adjustments, just give them a 15 minute warm bath and blow them out with the compressor.

Such a pain to pull them off that I might as well take advantage of the fact that they are already on the bench.
 
ancientdad said:
Well, 0.30mm is way too loose, that's for sure. A bit loose is not a bad thing, especially after a rebuild in which the valves are new and the seats had been cut as they'll settle in a bit. But you don't want them excessively loose either, of course. I like to set them at .002" (0.05mm) but until you get a thinner feeler gauge you can get by at .003" (0.076mm) but I personally wouldn't run them any looser for any length of time.

And you're checking them between the cam lobe and the follower as in the pic above, right? Not at the follower tip and the valve stem.
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I had to search a bit to find smaller gauges.

But I use .036 mm go, with .04 mm a no-go. It’s quieter at .03, but I find the 450 tricky to adjust and I worry about being too tight.

With that said, it has occurred to me that cheap feeler gauges may not be terribly accurate.
 
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