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An in between job, CB72'66 and a C77'64

You've had some nice close up shots and I've wondered if you used something more than a good cell phone for these shots. These high end cell phones do a good job with camera and audio. It's the compelling reason to spend the money on the higher end on these. But I don't think they do all that well on close up imaging.
Iphone 15pro (business phone), a Iphone 13 pro (privat phone) and Nokia 3720 (old phone, but works 2 weeks on single battery load. Close ups with the Iphone 13 pro, or the nikon with a macro lens.
 
Today I went to the (yearly) Harley-Davidson day in Huizen, it's the only official Harley gathering in the Netherlands. Since Harley's are also twins, I went with my wife. Some chapters are forbidden in the Netherlands, thus no Hells Angels and Satudarah signs visible. We had a few wines, nice food and had some nice talks. It was a good day.

harleys.jpg

Harley's everywhere, some other brand bike also, but mostly Harley's. Unfortunately only modern stuff, saw only a few older bikes, like a WLA, some Knuckleheads and a few panheads.

more harleys.jpg

Lots of wannabe bikers anyway, but this one is a typical Dutch biker ;)

wannebe.jpg

I didn't take my bike with me, last year I went with the CB450 K0, but since that isn't exactly a Harley, someone found it necessary to demolish my seat latch.
 
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Absolutely agree. It just proves that no matter where bikes are in the world, the prejudices still exist. We are ALL riders, but the bike manufacturer is apparently still more important to some.

I agree, but in favor of the Harley scene, something like this happened also at a show with the KJMV, my CB72 right tank batch was stolen, including the tiny screws (it was before the official opening in a club building, with access by club members only). I immediately quit my membership because with a certainty of 100 %, a member took it, and I don't want to be a member of a club with that kind of people.

But in the case of the Harley, yes. Later that month, I spoke to one of the organizers, and they had more complaints about molest of bikes that weren't branded Harley.

Today I had good conversation with mainly the owners of the classic Harley's, the guys with greasy hands. We talked about bikes, technology, and our common interests in bikes. The modern Harley owners seem not interested in technology, but more in the lifestyle, being part of a lifestyle group, owning a Harley for other reasons than maintaining and riding a Harley.

Too funny. I guess once he parks the bicycle, he can walk around and blend in with the actual bikers. Hopefully the tattoos won't wash off in the mean time.

O yes, he blended in perfectly, I saw him talking with a lot of bikers, but maybe his Harley broke down, and he had to take the bicycle, or he wanted to drink beers and took to bicycle to avoid issue's with the police.
 
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Quiet for a while here, but that doesn't mean that nothing was done. Cleaning parts, crankcases and removing old gaskets isn't exactly a job to look forward too, but it's now behind me. The cylinder to crankcase gasket was the worst, it took two full evenings to clean the surface.

I use a gasket scraper, oil and lots of patience. Normally the gasket will come off partly in an easy way, but in this case not. I had to use the scraper for every square centimeter, layer for layer. I use the oil to wet the gasket, this way the gasket swells, I scrape the top layer off, until you reach the dry part, then oil again, wait, and start all over again.

gasget removal_1.jpg

gasket removal_2.jpg

The result is a nice, clean, flat gasket surface, ready for the assembly. The engine cases are now being washed in the automatic part's washer (heated, pressurized) at the office.


gasket removal_3.jpg
 
No, hardened steel, and sharp. Parts that are hard to reach, I use a large blade of a carpenters knife.
Ah, good, I was worried that my frequent use of metal blades on gaskets was a no–no. I bought a pair of plastic gasket scrapers early on and rarely managed to accomplish anything with them.
 
No, hardened steel, and sharp. Parts that are hard to reach, I use a large blade of a carpenters knife.
I use a sharpened carpenters wood chisel for the hard ones. Have to mind the sharp corners but otherwise does great. Doesn’t dig into the aluminum but strong enough to bite into the hardened gasket. Maybe slightly rounding them off would be an improvement.
 
Got the new tool, a 35 mm socket, 1/2 inch. Difficult to find, not standard. Now I can remove the steering stem nut from the CB72. CE is Chinese export ;)

new tool.jpg
 
Did sort the parts that were in the parts washer last week, came out pretty clean !

kickstarter parts.jpg

To my surprise, the clutch piece was in very good shape, both sides ! However, the part where the wire sits is heavily damaged, but repairable.

suprise_1.jpg

I think it was replaced in 1989, together with the cylinder job. Maybe the gears as well, hardly worn by any means.

suprise_.jpg
 
The 35mm socket is in, so the steering stem is out. Bearing surface shows evenly wear, and that's good.

top bearing.jpg

Frame is straight as far I could measure, and that's a relief.

frame_1.jpg

Lots of dirt gathered over the years.

frame_2.jpg

All difficult to get hardware for the frame is good to go, cleaning and re-plating are next.

hardware.jpg
 
I like the cast lug work and other carefully made sub components of the frame, like that steering neck and the motor mounting cradle. Even though Honda used the latest technology and automation, I still think the term 'craftmanship' applies.


Also glad to see there is no sign of any Dutch mice having resided there.
 
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Cleaning and cleaning, a dull, dirty job, but it has to be done before the rebuilding starts. When all the dirt of the frame was removed, it seems that someone added (welded) an extra frame to engine connection in the past. I have to remove the parts that are still there before the frame is sent to the painter.

cleaned_1.jpg

welded parts.jpg

Not everything came clean out of the part's washer, the side cover came out partly dirty, so the old-fashioned cleaning by hand is the only remedy. On the bright side, the cover is perfect, no cracks, or any other issue's with it.

sidecover 1.jpg



sidecover 2.jpg
 
Was it, perhaps, an attempt to add a side stand?

No, this bike came with a original side stand. And no, the structure and material used were flat steel strips, not suitable for a side stand anyway.

But it triggered an idea, I have some CB450 K0 frames around, one or two of them are without papers, maybe to cut one of these frames, remove the front tube, the Y-section and the pipes underneath the engine and weld / fixate them onto the CB72 frame. Welding on a frame is not aloud (at least not such a large change), but bolting on is maybe a possibility.
 
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When all the dirt of the frame was removed, it seems that someone added (welded) an extra frame to engine connection in the past. I have to remove the parts that are still there before the frame is sent to the painter.
So there are two small bits left behind? The nearer one appears to have been cut off roughly at some point while the farther one was cut more smoothly? That doesn't look like it will be fun to remove.

Maybe it was done to stiffen the frame?

But it triggered an idea, I have some CB450 K0 frames around, one or two of them are without papers, maybe to cut one of these frames, remove the front tube, the Y-section and the pipes underneath the engine and weld / fixate them onto the CB72 frame.
The motor is a stressed member of the CB72 frame? So your idea is to add support to relieve this? Have you already checked that the geometry is compatible?
 
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The CL72 / 77 has the same engine, but a frame loop underneath the engine, connected to the oil pump (images taken from the CMSNL website).

honda-cl72-scrambler-1962-usa250-frame_bighu0092f8006_0764.gifframe_medium50100273010Z-01_b111.jpg

And for comparison, the CB72 frame:
honda-cb72-hawk-60-61-62-63-64i-64ii-general-export-142683-frame-body_bigma000099f05_6723.gif

Thus, comparing both frames, something should be possible in that direction. Using a CB450 K0 frame is possible a step too far, but a loop underneath the engine to connect the steering head part directly to the rear fork (geometrically), is maybe interesting thought.
 
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This is a most interesting idea and a lot to think about. I would be curious to see how others who have prepared frames for racing have done something similar to the CB72/77 frames.
 
Last post is from 12 June, time to update this thread.

The work on the CB72 is ongoing, I got the transmission parts from Graham (G-man), and put the kick starter shaft together. The engine bottom is almost done, while waiting for the cylinder bore job, and frame paint job. The front forks are re-furbished, so that these are ready for building in. I did the wheels (cleaned them, smoothed the brake drum surface on a lath at work), and brought them to a good friend of my together with two new tires (Michelin BT46).

I made many pictures during the work, but didn't feel to invest / write down everything on the forum for now (will do later). It takes a lot of time, time that I use for finishing this project ASAP, and start with the C78 dream. Meanwhile, I'm busy with the double in between job (the SS50 K3), and another triple in between job, 1st maintenance of the newly build up engine of the CD50H (changing oil, adjustment of valves, ignition timing, secondary chain tension and new tires). For now I will try Michelin Anakee's 2.25 * 17 and 2.50 8 17, which is a trail / all road tire. I really liked these tires on the XRV750 Africa Twin. The tires never failed me, dry and wet circumstances, and on top of that, they had a great mileage. The tires seem to be a little over the top for the 2HP output, but I found them cheap, much cheaper than the BT46's. The tires on the bike were Heidenau, these tires failed me a few times in the rain, and off-road, being too slippery at speed in cornering.

CD50 maintenance_1.jpg
Points, valves adjusted, chain greased.

CD50  maintenance_2.jpg
The new tires at the bike, took some time and struggle to mount them, the Anakee's are very stiff and the fitting is tight.

CD50 maintenance_3.jpg
Since the output of the generator was low, I changed the rotor for a better one. I took it from a C50 engine which I did rebuild a long time ago.


C50 engine.jpg
Complete C50 engine, rebuild several years ago. I did rebuild 6 engines at once, and kept them as spare. All original Honda parts, from a time that parts were still cheap on Ebay and shipping meant SHIP-meant and cheap as well. I remember a guy named Shopesales, everything for 0,99 cents starting bid. The parts for these bikes like pistons, cranks, bearings, shafts, gears, cams, heads were mostly sold below 2 USD because nobody wanted them.

Furthermore, for the CB72 I did more extensive research on frame design, and came to the conclusion that a loop underneath the engine won't affect torsion sensitivity between steering part of the frame and rear fork pivot point in a way that it's worth the trouble. However, while drawing the frame in solid works (for calculations), I learned that the fit between the engine and frame should be very precise to avoid any movement between the two. So, instead of welding a loop underneath the engine, I reamed the original crankcase holes to a very precise diameter. I also made some special shafts on the lathe, so now the fitting between the cases and bolts is H7/j6. Instead of four bolts that holds the rear crankcases to the frame (bolts nr. 13 in the CMS picture in post 176), the engine is fitted with two shafts, including a spacer to create a rigid connection. I also reamed the holes on the frame with the same specifications as the engine cases.

The other side (bolt 6 and 12) are also being remade, having a H7/j6 fit between cylinder head cover and frame. Hoping that the rigid connection between these three points onto the frame make the whole less vulnerable to torsion. And since I will add the hydraulic steering damper, I made bolt 6 a copy of the special (angled) bold that holds the steering damper (very special thanks to my colleague for welding this special bolt !)
 
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Wow Jensen you are very prolific in your shop. I understand not having as much time to write and post but I sure enjoy this thread.
I love my Michelin City Extra 2.50x17 F&R, similar tread but probably not as deep that are on my C200, totally changed the ride of that bike.
Glad to hear Gman got you his kit and all went well I'm sure.
Not familiar with H7/j6 fitment terminology. Sounds interesting.
 
Not familiar with H7/j6 fitment terminology

Sorry, my fault, read in here (Wikipedia) :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineering_fit

I love my Michelin City Extra 2.50x17 F&R, similar tread but probably not as deep that are on my C200, totally changed the ride of that bike

Yes, a tire can change a ride. Somehow I always come back to Michelin or Bridgestone, and I tried a lot of other tires on my bikes (Mitas, Heidenau, Dunlop, Kenda, Continental and Metzeler).
If Michelin and / or Bridgestone are not available, I would go for Metzeler. However, the sizes of our classic bikes are not always available within these three brands.
 
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Thanks. Put in my favorites for future reference when I want to be specific.

The 16 inch for the Dreams are hard to find in 3.25. I'm running 3.50 without any clearance issues but the C95 uses the same rims and has tighter fender clearance (3.00x16 spec) so I bought 90/80-16 Shinko SR714 and hope they will fit.
 
OK, here I can buy:

Mitas MC-2 3.251616
Mitas H06, 3.25/16
Metzeler block-C 3.25/16
Heidenau K33 3.25/16
Heidenau K36 3.25/16
Heidenau K41 3.25/16
VEE rubber VRM 094 3.25/16
VEE rubber VRM 097 3.25/16
Kenda TR-6 3.25/16

Pirelli MT15 90/80 16
Dunlop Scootsmart 90/90 48P 16 (front)
Bridgestone BT46 (100/90 H-16), 3.50, thus only rear
Michelin city grip 2, 100/80-16 50S, 3.50, thus only rear

Michelin pilot street 80/90 16

etc....
 
That is a pretty good amount of choices, more than here maybe.
I have noticed the OEM tires are wider than the sidewall printed size, for instance, the OHTSU ribbed front said 3.00 width but was fully 3.50 on Charles 65 Dream.
That is why I chose the 3.50 width tires for my Dream. They are Chinese MMG with a standard block tread and seam to be good. I have another (forget which brand) set in 3.50 for Charles bike.
The Vee rubber tires are sold here by an ebay seller and I have used them on Charles CA95, very nice quality and are the appropriate width for CA95. I would want something wider than them for a Dream.
 
While waiting for the frame of the CB72 to be painted, another in between job landed in my shed. Not 1, but 2 SS50Zs K3's at once. One is from my brother-in-law, the other one is out of my stash. Since both are the same, why not build them parallel. All parts are there, including engine's I rebuild years ago, so it should be an easy task.

two frames.jpg

the extra engine.jpg
Another rebuild engine of the shelf, only 5 left, 1 extra CD50H, 2 C50H (one 3-speed semi-automatic and one 4-speed semi-automatic), and 2 PC50's.

btw, here's a picture of a Honda SS50, specific for the Dutch market

folder 1.jpg
 
The ad pic and the one on your workbench looks like a manual clutch. Never seen a manual clutch moped. Pretty cool. Our auto clutch models (CT90) often use the left lever as an additional rear brake control.
 
Yes, manual clutch, 4 speed, at least the Dutch version, the UK version has a 5 speed and a mechanical disc brake set-up. My blue CD50H also has a manual 4-speed, manual clutch. The SS50Z was a moped that every guy of 16 years old wanted to have. It was reliable, had an up swept muffle like a scrambler, 4 speed manual clutch, winkers, battery, and good brakes as well.

The price today, of a good complete one is higher than the price of a good C77, or even a CB72. They go between 2500 and 5000 euro, sometimes even more.

Only a mufflers will cost you around 1000 euro: https://www.marktplaats.nl/v/fietse...ieuw-honda-ss50-hoge-versie-in-honda-doos-nos

Can you imagine that a pristine, original complete SS50Z k1 or K3 has the same value as my CB400F ? But that the sum of parts of an CB400F is way higher than the sum of parts of an SS50Z ?


folder_2.jpg

and in the ad it's a chick magnet :

folder_3.jpg

Yea right :whistle:
 
Especially after your chick magnet has become degaussed. (and you're happily married too, of course)
Nope, not married, but over 28 years the same girlfriend, two sons with her count probably as being married ;)
My girlfriend doesn't like motorbikes or mopeds as well, never did.
 
Nope, not married, but over 28 years the same girlfriend, two sons with her count probably as being married ;)
My girlfriend doesn't like motorbikes or mopeds as well, never did.
Naw, I bet she fell for the whole Jensen mystique (including the moto love), she just won't admit it.
 
In the UK, it's the Yamaha FS1E that fetches silly prices. Back in the day, it was the 'Sixteener Special' of choice * , hence the current fad for nostalgic middle aged folks with more cash than sense buying the things. I was fortunately just old enough to avoid that legislation ( 50cc motorcycles with bicycle pedals bodged on, so that they were classed as 'mopeds', and thus legal for 16 year olds to ride ), prior to that law being introduced 16 year old learners could ride anything up to 250cc.

And then the 250's got too fast, and learner riders (17 years and upwards ) were restricted to 125 cc bikes. ( Two stroke versions of which were soon developing 30 bhp and touching 100mph )

* it would leave the SS50 standing .....

I got to ride several of these sports mopeds back in the day, very similar to my YG1 73cc '80', in exchange for rides on my CB175, which I am equally guilty of being nostalgic about.

1720990873701.png
 
Luckily, made it back from Serbia with the experience how it is to fly on the day that windows crashed :ROFLMAO:

Was an interesting trip anyway, it started already with departure in the Netherlands, I didn't believe my eyes, but picture don't lie :

Afbeelding van WhatsApp op 2024-07-20 om 11.02.53_b31bb222.jpg


Afbeelding van WhatsApp op 2024-07-20 om 11.02.36_0388d255.jpg

Flying back was another adventure, first a delay of 3 hours due to the Windows update issue's (I'm glad that the plain actually departed), but just before boarding, we had to wait another hour because they had to change a wheel. Finally coming back in the Netherlands (late), had to run to catch the last train. At the arrival at the train station, all buses departed, so walking was the only option (7-isch miles / 10 km) with a (not so heavy) backpack in the middle of the night. Luckily it was full moon, because the battery of my phone was already dead, so no light.

Well, made it home, safe, but I get too old for this kind of trips (when I was younger, it was just another good story at the beer garden or cafe ;)).

Monday off to work on the CB450 K0, a reliable way of transport, departing and arrival on time, quality tires, good lights, and not taped together with 3M stuff........

btw, total steps 31,000 / 25 km
 
That sounds like a rough trip. At least it wasn't the leading edge and you weren't the person in the window seat when it needed repair. I wonder how the number stickers are used. I'm guessing it's to document repairs?

The saga reminds me of the movie Planes, Trains, and Automobiles. Not necessarily recommending it, but it was funny at the time it came out. Glad you got home okay.
 
Can't believe no one could have picked you up so you didn't have to walk 10 km in the middle of the night. That would not be very safe here in the US depending on your location.
 
Repairing wings with tape, no rivets required, a repaired airplane wheel, and the crowd strike windows cyber update glitch. I bet you walked that 7 miles just loving having your feet on the ground and in your own control. I just got back from road trip vacation up North. Had to drive a friend that joined us to airport this morning to the MPLS airport. The flight was listed as OK, but now they are delayed for undetermined time.

I strapped a bicycle to top of my Ford Escape for our vacation, had fun with that. Got out on a canoe. Walked and swam some. Driving 4 wheel vehicles and flying is much overrated. The older I get the less of it I want to do. Got home to a beat up old carb that arrived from Ebay to play with. Got it sprayed down with penetrating oil on all the rusty spots to start. Living the good life.
 
Oh, and Jensen, I really do enjoy your posts on your motorcycle work! Seems like a passion, and you have developed some incredible skills with these machines. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge.
 
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