Jays100 Oil Pump - Installation

stl360+450

stl360+450

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I believe I purchased the last of the four prototype oil pumps that Jays100 produced for the CB450. I finally had time today to carry out the installation, so I'll share some pictures and notes about how the installation went for me. My machine is a 1974 k7 and I found it on Craigslist in 2011. This was my first vintage bike and I shifted from paying others to work on the bike to doing all of the work myself over about a 3-4 year span. I split the cases in 2018 to make several repairs (that I won't go into here) and rebuilt the top-end with +0.5mm pistons at that time. This summer I upgraded the rotor to one from Rick's Electrics and installed the corresponding Rick's combination rectifier/regulator while I was at it. I'm running the original Keihin 723A carburetors with stock airboxes and a set of OEM mufflers that I found on eBay several years ago.

I like to use a piece of cardboard to keep my case bolts in order.
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Here's a picture of the centrifugal oil filter cup upon disassembly. The oil was changed in August when I installed the new rotor, but I have not cleaned the filter cup since 2018. You can see the messy gasket remnants in the background.

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The next picture was taken after removal of the centrifugal oil filter cup, the clutch plates/discs, the clutch basket and the oil pump. The gasket surface has also been cleaned prior to installation of the new pump and reassembly of the remaining components. I did not remove the brake pedal as suggested and just pressed it down to move it out of the way as needed.

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It took me a little while to fish out the old o-ring around the dowel pin, but eventually I got it and installed the o-ring supplied with the pump.

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I cleaned the oil screen with brake cleaner and installed it on the new pump before putting the new pump in place and securing it with the bolts provided. I used the recommended drop of blue Loctite. I apparently missed the instructions to pour oil through the screen with the pump inverted as a means of priming the pump - hopefully it will be okay if I kick the bike over a few times without spark to prime the pump after I refill the oil. EDIT (10/29/21): Replacing original photo of the oil pump with one where the oil screen is installed correctly!
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The driven gear, shim, and retaining snap ring were installed next. I did not have snap ring pliers small enough for the snap ring and ended up using a couple of picks to get it on. EDIT (10/29/21): Replacing photo to show correct oil screen orientation.

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The picture below shows the interference caused by the driven gear with the oil fence on the cover. The second picture shows the clearance obtained by removing a small portion of the oil fence. I had a hard time taking pictures through the cover - sorry about the weird angles!

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I cleaned up the cover after using my Dremel to remove material from the oil fence and began the reassembly. The hardest part of the whole process for me was bending a tab inside the oil filter cup after tightening the nut. EDIT (10/29/21): Replacing photo on the right with one showing the oil screen in the correct orientation.

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I finished my work for the day with the installation of a new gasket and the replacement of the side cover, followed by the kickstarter lever, right exhaust, and right foot peg. I plan to put new oil in the motor tomorrow, kick it over a few times without spark, and then start it up.
 
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Congrats on being the first to install and put Jay’s new oil pump to use. It seems very straightforward from your posts. Thanks for taking the time to document it. I look forward to your comments after initial start up and as you put the pump through real use testing. The upgrades you’ve done previously on this K7 450 seem like sound ones and make your bike a great candidate for this new pump in my opinion. Nice work!
 
12ozPBR said:
Congrats on being the first to install and put Jay’s new oil pump to use.
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Thanks - I believe wentwest has also done the installation now. It definitely was not overly difficult, but it did take me the whole morning from start to finish. I'm excited and a little nervous about the first start, which is always the case when I've been in one of my motors.
 
And here I am. I did the installation over a few days, and my experience was similar to what's written up here. I used a regular 4" grinder to cut back the oil fence, but got the same result. And I managed to bend the snap ring and had to go out and buy a new one - turns out 3/8" worked fine. Fortunately I was able to borrow a small snap ring pliers set so that worked a little better. I did prime the oil pump, but when I turned it over to install it a lot poured out, so maybe it worked. Today I buttoned it all up and then took out both spark plugs and ran the starter for 6-8 seconds, let it sit and then did it again, and again, and again, then had lunch and did it again. Put the plugs back, hooked them up, put the gas tank back and hooked that up, then started the bike and let it run. It did, no leaks. There's no way for me to check the functioning of the pump so I have to believe that it's working. It certainly seems like it should work well.
 
wentwest said:
And here I am. I did the installation over a few days, and my experience was similar to what's written up here.
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Hey, Bob! Thanks for adding your experiences, especially regarding the first start. I hope to follow suit tomorrow. I have the starter delete package, so I'll be working my right calf for 10-20 kicks before I add fuel and spark to the mix.
 
Thanks to all commenting on Jay's pump, good to see them getting installed and I'm convinced the results are going to be good. I have one but it's destined for my drag bike project so it will be a while before I can see the performance of it and compare results.
 
Added info

You guys are awesome!

-quick observation to please verify the screen is installed “ right side up”. That is, the little rubber feet go in the down direction.
-and, should I include a spare ring in the kit just in case one gets bent/twisted/lost?

Finally, in the bike upright position, the pump delivers oil to the top end within 15-20 secs so kicking is appreciated, but not critical.

Regarding priming, the goal was to ensure oil is in the spaces between the gear teeth thus ensuring a perfect seal at startup. As these pumps work, doesn’t matter the feed hole is empty - that is, what you saw running out - the critical oil is still there!
J
 
Jays100 said:
-quick observation to please verify the screen is installed “ right side up”. That is, the little rubber feet go in the down direction.
-and, should I include a spare ring in the kit just in case one gets bent/twisted/lost?
J
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EDIT (10/29/21): I originally installed the oil screen upside down. I have now corrected the photos in the previous posts to show the oil screen in the correct orientation. I don't want anyone reading this thread in the future to make the same mistake! Thank you, Jay, for making this quick, but crucial observation!

It wouldn't hurt to include two snap rings. I managed to install it with picks, but it could have easily gone wrong.
 
stl360+450 said:
Jay - Could you check the picture I posted above to verify the screen installation? I installed it in what I thought was the same orientation as on the original pump. Based on what you just wrote, I'm afraid I have it upside down.

EDIT: I do have it upside down - I see now in your picture how the feet are supposed to be on the bottom. At least I didn't put oil in the motor yet...

It wouldn't hurt to include two snap rings. I managed to install it with picks, but it could have easily gone wrong.
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I agree about 2 snap rings, my smallest set of snap ring pliers barely fit and it was still difficult to avoid bending it.

I assume everyone got these pics from Jay, the screen on the oil pump is shown with the little "feet" pointing down.
 
ancientdad said:
I assume everyone got these pics from Jay, the screen on the oil pump is shown with the little "feet" pointing down.
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Yup. I just missed that detail. I will correct the orientation in the morning. I'm thankful for the input from everyone, which prevented me from moving forward with the screen upside down!

EDIT (10/29/21): I have now corrected the oil screen orientation as well as all of the associated pictures in the preceding posts.
 
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I put mine together right side up. As usual a minute of heat from the old Milwaukee heat gun made it much more flexible while it was warm.

And Jay, I may have cranked it more than needed, but better than less.
 
I’m getting suppliers sorted, the next batch of parts are ordered and will arrive in time for Christmas. Who would have thought there would be so many roadblocks, hidden costs and politics, ugh.

Please keep posting your progress. I appreciate the feedback whether good or bad, it’s knowledge needed for constant improvement.

Design thread here:
https://www.vintagehondatwins.com/f...-A-Better-Oil-Pump-New-For-450-amp-500T/page2
 
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I was in the garage early this morning to correct the orientation of the oil screen after installing it upside down yesterday. The work went much faster today and I am really glad that I decided not to put any oil in the motor yesterday. I wanted to record a video of the first start, but that didn't work out because my left float bowl overflowed at an inopportune time. I have been running non-ethanol gas since August, so this was a bit of a surprise, especially since I rode the bike to work on Wednesday with no issues. Alas, I was still able to capture a short video after the float issue was sorted and the bike was idling. Every machine has its own sound, but I do feel that my top end is quieter with the new pump.

10-second video:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/AskBg6q9Gt5hj39Q9
 
I checked my oil level and then took my bike out for a really short ride this afternoon - no issues. I probably traveled less than half a mile in total within my city neighborhood. My initial impression is that the throttle response feels different, not in a good or bad way, but just different. I am curious to hear from Bob and Jay about their riding experiences with the new pump.
 
stl360+450 said:
I was in the garage early this morning to correct the orientation of the oil screen after installing it upside down yesterday. The work went much faster today and I am really glad that I decided not to put any oil in the motor yesterday. I wanted to record a video of the first start, but that didn't work out because my left float bowl overflowed at an inopportune time. I have been running non-ethanol gas since August, so this was a bit of a surprise, especially since I rode the bike to work on Wednesday with no issues. Alas, I was still able to capture a short video after the float issue was sorted and the bike was idling. Every machine has its own sound, but I do feel that my top end is quieter with the new pump.

10-second video:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/AskBg6q9Gt5hj39Q9
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Engine sounds good, certainly quiet as any I've heard. I finally got a chance to listen to a stock 450 while Chris and I were riding on Tuesday and Wednesday when he started his bike cold on Wednesday morning, and it was just as I remembered hearing when a stock exhaust is involved - if you squat down next to the top end of the engine while it's idling right after a cold start, you can hear the "hissing" sound diminish after 45 seconds or so when the oil reaches the head. That's the same reaction I remember from my new CL450K4 back when I was in high school and it's a nice point of reference (when you can hear it of course, not on my current 450)
 
There are two impressions, Tom/ancientdad noted the noise difference as the first. Oil is a great buffer for that, your engine should be slightly quieter. That is my riding impression.

For discussion on the 2nd, the pump consumes almost no power to turn and make pressure. That is, the calculation is about 1/10th of a hp for the pressure. That’s slightly more than the piston pump. The pump only contributes to friction, or drag inside the engine, not runability.

Hope that helps.
 
Jays100 said:
There are two impressions, Tom/ancientdad noted the noise difference as the first. Oil is a great buffer for that, your engine should be slightly quieter. That is my riding impression.

For discussion on the 2nd, the pump consumes almost no power to turn and make pressure. That is, the calculation is about 1/10th of a hp for the pressure. That’s slightly more than the piston pump. The pump only contributes to friction, or drag inside the engine, not runability.

Hope that helps.
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Thanks, Jay. It makes sense that higher oil pressure would come at the cost of a [small] increase in drag in the motor. Were you able to feel that difference when you rode with the new pump for the first time?

I may have also been noticing a difference with the clutch after all the plates and discs were removed and reinstalled. I can say fairly confidently that the top end runs quieter with the new pump and I'm looking forward to riding it a whole bunch more in the coming weeks - weather permitting.
 
I was not able to feel a difference. Maybe subconsciously a little bit because I was watching the pressure gauge closely, and it was higher. Ergo, performance is different? Truly I wasn’t thinking about runability, my test bike runs really strong.
 
I agree. I think it's like when you do an oil change and fluids check on your car, pull wheels and inspect brakes and rotate the tires. Next time you drive it it "feels" better, which is purely psychological. No direct connection to performance from a better oil pump, but certainly more peace of mind knowing the top end parts are better and more consistently lubricated. Improved longevity, which would lead to better long-term performance.
 
I'm still not ready to test ride the Bomber, for other reasons, so I can't add any experience. I do know that every vehicle I ever owned ran better after I changed the oil ... and we all know how impossible that is. I don't expect much, if any, change in the operation of the bike. Then again, I've never ridden the thing yet, so how would I know?
 
I took the bike out for another ride today. It's in the mid 40s Fahrenheit here this morning, so it was only a 4 mile ride, but the bike felt good and at some points I was taking it up into the 7000-8000 RPM range with no issues. It was still purring nicely when I returned home.
 
Several months in, please post your impressions, difficulties (or none) at installation. Comments on improvements, you know the drill!

Are you positive, or neg, on the pump?

For me, my daily driver is a 68 CL450 with 30K miles accumulated. It has several thousand miles on a production pump with no issues. It has relatively new gaskets <5K miles on them. I have removed the countershaft oil lube thingy and replaced with RTV sealant as the original was a chronic leaker, thankfully not any more. The engine is generally quieter. There has been no appreciable change in fuel economy and no real change in oil quality/centrifugal filter sludge at oil change (maybe a slight increase in sludge???) but that one's hard to quantify.
 
Because the Bomber is still not registered, and because it's still not running right because of nothing to do with the pump, it's hard to have many comments. As I said earlier, the new pump showed me a lot of places where the gaskets in my engine were poor at best, and I think I've finally stopped the dripping. That tells me there's more pressure and more oil circulating, good things. The installation was one of the easier projects, grinding down the one small area of the crankcase cover was no big deal at all. Everything else was straightforward and logical. Like so many things, I agonize before I decide to spend the money for a project, but once it's spent I'm glad I did.
 
wentwest said:
Because the Bomber is still not registered, and because it's still not running right because of nothing to do with the pump, it's hard to have many comments. As I said earlier, the new pump showed me a lot of places where the gaskets in my engine were poor at best, and I think I've finally stopped the dripping. That tells me there's more pressure and more oil circulating, good things. The installation was one of the easier projects, grinding down the one small area of the crankcase cover was no big deal at all. Everything else was straightforward and logical. Like so many things, I agonize before I decide to spend the money for a project, but once it's spent I'm glad I did.
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All well said Bob. Any of us on a budget can relate to the agonizing.
 
Jays100 said:
Several months in, please post your impressions, difficulties (or none) at installation. Comments on improvements, you know the drill! Are you positive, or neg, on the pump?
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I missed a month or so of riding in April because I was out of town, but am now starting to log more miles on the pump. I don't have a long commute and I live in the city, so my miles come in small increments with lots of four-way stops and traffic lights. I'm glad to have the gear pump for the improved lubrication in that kind of stop-and-go traffic, especially as the hot, humid weather settles in. I hope to be able to give a more meaningful endorsement at the end of the summer when I should have more miles on it. (As a point of reference, my odometer shows 12,138 miles today.)
 
Odometer reads only 12,256, but I've dealt with numerous maintenance repairs on my CB450 over the summer, including installing new points leads, advancer springs, air filters, and even carburetors (slides were sticking no matter what I did to clean them). It's running well again and I should begin to accumulate more mileage now that school is starting and I'll have somewhere to ride regularly.

5nPsPGw.jpg
 
ancientdad said:
Now, I'm sure Jay doesn't mind but we really need to get back to his oil pump content.
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Agreed, Tom. How would you feel about moving the posts about gearing (maybe starting with Dom's) to a new thread so we can continue to discuss? It's my mistake for not starting a separate thread about that in the first place... sorry.

Possible title: Gearing and sprocket choices for the CB450.
 
stl360+450 said:
Agreed, Tom. How would you feel about moving the posts about gearing (maybe starting with Dom's) to a new thread so we can continue to discuss? It's my mistake for not starting a separate thread about that in the first place... sorry.

Possible title: Gearing and sprocket choices for the CB450.
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Brody, no need to apologize. It's a good idea, I'll move the posts right now and you can type in the new subject line so I can edit the thread title to match later.

Edit: I'm an idiot, re-read the post and copied the suggested title :rolleyes:
 
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